Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Culture • Writing
Separating Fact From Fiction on Fox News/Dominion Lawsuit. PLUS: 50th Episode Reflections on Rumble & Our Show
Video Transcript: System Update #50
March 08, 2023
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Note From Glenn Greenwald: The following is the full show transcript, for subscribers only, of a recent episode of our System Update program, broadcast live on Friday March 3, 2023. Watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to the podcast on Spotify

Virtually the entirety of the corporate media has spent the last two weeks gleefully writing the obituary of Fox News and its primetime hosts, especially the nation's most-watched cable news host, Tucker Carlson. They have constructed a narrative that, if true, would be indisputably crippling, if not permanently destructive, to their journalistic credibility. Namely, they claim these Fox hosts in the weeks following the 2020 election were promoting and endorsing Trump's accusation that he lost due to widespread voting machine fraud, all while the same hosts in private were ridiculing these same claims and admitting they found them baseless and ridiculous. But is there a truth to this narrative, one which, incidentally, is based entirely on a legal brief filed by the lawyers for the voting machine company Dominion that is suing Fox News, a legal brief that Fox News is yet to answer? 

That this narrative has been proven is virtually gospel among American liberals. As usual, these corporate media outlets, along with Democratic Party leaders, are marching in total lockstep, and none has aired any skepticism or questioning of this accusatory framework, let alone give airtime to anyone challenging it. So we will examine these accusations in depth, evaluate the evidence offered for them, and assess whether they have indeed been proven true. 

As I just indicated, tonight is the 50th episode of System Update and we will use this solemn and commemorative occasion to engage in a bit of self-reflection to assess what we are trying to achieve with this program, how the platform provided by Rumble is so vital to allowing independent media to thrive, and why the growing success of independent media is, in our view, of the greatest priority and a major cause of optimism. 

For now, welcome to a new episode of System Update, starting right now. 


Monologue

 

If it were your goal to destroy a journalist’s reputation, it's hard to imagine anything more effective than being able to prove that they publicly affirmed facts, which in private they admitted they did not actually believe. If you could show that - that a journalist was privately mocking a theory that on their own shows they were pretending to believe - then it's almost impossible to imagine how that journalist could retain any credibility. 

The part of the corporate media that hates Fox News and has long craved its destruction – meaning almost all of the corporate media except Fox News – believes with great excitement that this is what they have now proven. They believe they have now proven this about Fox's most-watched host, Tucker Carlson, as well as the other Fox primetime hosts such as Laura Ingraham. To listen to them tell it they have a smoking gun proof that, at the end of the 2020 election, both Carlson and Ingraham were privately mocking as frivolous and deranged Trump's allegations of widespread election fraud, while then going on their own shows and – in order to please the right-wing audience – were pretending to support and affirm the very theories of election fraud that they were privately mocking. 

Similar to how CNN and MSNBC spent years bringing on various CIA, FBI and NSA operatives to promise bloodthirsty liberals that the walls really were closing in on Trump this time, that it was just a matter of time before he would be frogmarched out of the White House to finally receive his just desserts, liberal corporate outlets are celebrating the full-scale destruction of Tucker Carlson's journalistic credibility. That is because they insist they caught him red-handed publicly endorsing election fraud theories that, in private, he was mocking as fictitious and deranged.

 The CNN media critic whose life appears to center around the only cable show that anyone watches, Oliver Darcy, published this obituary of Fox News, on February 24, under the headline “It's a major blow. Dominion has uncovered “smoking gun” evidence in a case against Fox News, legal experts say”. this whole article uses one of the favorite corrupt tactics of corporate media. They hand-picked so-called experts whom they know share their political worldview and ideology and then quote them – and only them – saying what they themselves really believe, all so that they can maintain the pretense that they're really just nonpartisan, objective reporters who, in a great stroke of luck, randomly chose experts “who all happen to agree with them”. That way, they get to launder their own opinions as just what “the experts say”. This article illustrating the narrative that almost every American liberal has embraced begins, 

 

Fox News is in serious hot water. That’s what several legal experts told CNN this week following Dominion Voting Systems explosive legal filing against the right-wing talk channel, revealing the network's executives and hosts privately blasted the election fraud claims being peddled by Donald Trump's team, despite allowing lies about the 2020 contest to be promoted on its air. Rebecca Tushnet, the Frank Stanton professor of First Amendment law at Harvard Law School, described Dominion's evidence as a very strong filing ‘that clearly lays out the difference between what Fox was saying publicly and what top people at Fox were privately admitting”. 

 

A cache of behind-the-scenes messages included in the legal filing showed Fox Corp. Chairman Rupert Murdoch called Trump's claims “really crazy stuff” and the cable network’s stars – including Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham – brutally mock the lies being pushed by the former president's camp asserting that the election was rigged. It also showed attempts to crack down on fact-checking election lies.

 

On one occasion, Carlson demanded that Fox News White House correspondent Jacqui Heinrich be fired after she fact-checked a Trump tweet pushing the election fraud claims. Tushnet said that in all of her years practicing and teaching law, she had never seen such damning evidence collected in the pre-trial phase of a defamation suit. “I really don't recall anything comparable to this”, Tushnet said. “Donald Trump seems to be very good at generating unprecedented situations” (CNN. Feb.24, 2023).  

 

I'm sure that this First Amendment law professor at Harvard Law School who is saying all of that and holding that Donald Trump is very, very good at creating unprecedented situations is just a very nonpartisan and ideologically free First Amendment expert who just so happens to be telling CNN what they most want to hear, namely, that this is the most devastating defamation case she's ever seen in her very long life as being a First Amendment expert. 

Congress's most brazen pathological liar, California Democrat Adam Schiff, removed from his seat on the House Intelligence Committee for exactly that attribute, explicitly accused Tucker Carlson of endorsing the voting fraud claims while privately repudiating them. 

Weak men peddle false election lies while privately dismissing them as absurd. Weak men use fear and hate to motivate their followers. Weak men value money and notoriety over truth and decency. Tucker Carlson is a weak, weak man (March 3, 2023). 

 

On Wednesday, the two leading Democrats in Congress, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries did something infinitely worse and more dangerous than anything they're accusing Fox of doing. Namely, they wrote a letter to Fox executives full of demands about what Fox News must now say and do. That senior political leaders in Washington are now issuing orders to media outlets of this kind did not, needless to say, bother many employees of media corporations. After all, if they're not bothered by the FBI and the CIA dictating to Big Tech what should and should not be permitted on the Internet, then, of course, they're not going to be bothered by decrees from political officials about what media outlets must say. But the letter from these Democratic leaders also repeated the same central allegation, namely that Fox primetime host endorsed the election fraud claims of Trump despite admitting they were false. 

 

Dear Mr. Rupert Murdoch et all. As noted in your deposition released yesterday, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and other Fox News personalities knowingly, repeatedly, and dangerously endorsed and promoted the big lie that Donald Trump won the 2020 presidential election. We demand that you direct Tucker Carlson and other hosts on your network to stop spreading false election narratives and admit on the air that they were wrong to engage in such negligent behavior.

 

As evidenced by the January 6 insurrection, spreading this false propaganda can not only embolden supporters of the big lie to engage in further acts of political violence but also deeply and broadly weakens faith in our democracy and hurts our country in countless ways (Letter to Fox from Dem. Leadership.  March 1, 2023).  

 

Meanwhile, The Intercept, a media outlet I founded back in 2013 to serve as an adversary against the intelligence community – partisan talking points in the corporate media – but which has instead become the exact opposite of that – namely, a carbon copy of CNN and MSNBC in its service to the Democratic Party – echoed, as it now always does, the CNN narrative, along with the Democratic talking points under this headline “Tucker Carlson Deserves A Raise For His Shameless Lies.” This entire article rests on the assumption that is implicitly assumed but never proven, namely, that Tucker Carlson told his audience that Trump's claims of election fraud were valid at the same time he was privately ridiculing those same claims.

 

Carlson's concern was that Fox viewers simply wouldn't accept the facts and, if presented with them, would flock to competitors who would tell them the comforting lies for which they yearned. At about the same time, Carlson texted his producer that, “We're playing with fire for real… an alternative like Newsmax could be devastating for us.”

 

It's easy and fun to jeer at Carlson for his hilarious deceit, and I wouldn't want to dissuade anyone from doing so. It's especially enjoyable to find out Carlson believes Trump is a “demonic force” (p.43 of the filing) yet has never told his audience this. In fact, Carlson still enjoys sharing a hearty guffaw with the demonic force at Saudi golf tournaments. 

But once we're done pointing and laughing at Carlson, we have to think more seriously about […]

 

This person, by the way, who has no audience, whom nobody knows, who has never published a single thing that has made any impact, he's pointing and laughing at Carlson, the most watched and influential host on television. And he says, 

 

[…] once we're done pointing and laughing at Carlson, we have to think more seriously about this if we'd like to have a society that's based – at least a little bit – on rationality and evidence. Because in the society we have now, Carlson should logically be rewarded for everything he's done… 

 

In fact, seen from this perspective, the only thing Carlson did wrong was foolishly expressing his views in forms that were discoverable in a lawsuit. On Wall Street, the smarter executives are sophisticated enough not to do this and message each other “f2f” – i.e.,  face-to-face – to indicate to their co-workers when they need to discuss something that wouldn't look good if written out and cited in court… 

 

For-profit news outlets can do great investigative reporting, but that reporting is itself generally not profitable and is subsidized by their cooking apps or sports coverage that actually do make money. By itself, telling the truth is generally not just unprofitable, it's also actively anti-profit. The lesson of the Dominion lawsuit isn't that Fox is extremely bad, although it is.  It’s that to have a news system that works, we have to take profit out of the equation (The Intercept. Feb. 26, 2023). 

 

Leave aside the nauseating irony that all of these lectures about truth are coming from people who work at media outlets, including The Intercept, that spread lies on a daily basis – they're all the same outlets, for example, that told Americans (because the CIA told them to) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation so that everybody would ignore the reporting about Joe Biden before the election and vote for Joe Biden instead. – leaving that aside, it's always amusing when employees of billionaire-funded nonprofits like The Intercept lecture everyone else on how journalism can only succeed if the profit component of the equation is removed. 

It is true that dependence on corporate advertisers can place pressure on journalists not to alienate their audience but it certainly is equally true that people who work at nonprofits funded by a single billionaire are likely to feel great pressure to avoid angering that billionaire funder. Lest the funding disappears and their inflated salaries – meaning people like this with no audience or accomplishments and nonetheless receive very large salaries – will disappear along with that funding. 

One of the key points in all of this is that all news organizations need a funding model unless one is from one of the nation's wealthiest families, which happens to be the case for at least several of the journalists who have worked over the years at The Intercept, then one needs a way to pay a livable wage to the journalists, editors, studio technicians, lawyers, technologists, camera crews, and the rest of the team necessary to produce high-quality journalism. And each of those funding models, including ones that depend on audience donations, does have the potential to carry with it various pressures to stay within certain lines or avoid alienating one's audience. All of that is true. The claim now is that Fox's primetime hosts endorse Trump's voting fraud claims, even though they privately admitted did not believe them because they were afraid that they would lose their audience to OAN or Newsmax if they did not do so. 

Beyond the fact that as we're about to show you, nobody can point to a single Tucker Carlson segment or Laura Ingraham segment, from late 2020 or early 2021, where they endorse this election fraud theory, namely, the entire allegation central to this claim can't be proven. In fact, Tucker Carlson vehemently condemned those who are making the claim of election fraud without evidence, as we're about to show you. Liberal outlets such as CNN back then in late 2020 and 2021, were making the exact opposite claim about Fox. Namely, they were gloating about the fact that Fox was losing their audience due to their refusal of late-night hosts to endorse Trump's election fraud claims. 

Here was CNN back then, saying exactly the opposite of what they're saying now, namely that Fox's integrity was starting to destroy their ratings. 

 

Fox News is taking action to stave off newfound competition from Newsmax TV. Producers on some Fox programs have been told to monitor Newsmax’s guest bookings and throw some sand in Newsmax’s gears by encouraging guests who appear on both channels to stop saying yes to the upstart.

 

Up until Election Day, Newsmax barely had a pulse on Nielsen's TV ratings reports, which showed that the channel only averaged 34,000 viewers at any given time in August and September. A slight uptick in October became a groundswell of viewership after November 3. One of the obvious causes was Fox's projection that President Trump would lose the state of Arizona, drastically narrowing his path to reelection. Newsmax criticized Fox and gave viewers false hope about Trump's chances. 

 

This tactic continued when Fox and all the other major networks called the election for President-elect Biden on November seven. Newsmax insisted that the race wasn't over and that the major networks were acting irresponsibly, when, in fact, Newsmax was the irrational actor. A subset of the Fox audience flock to Newsmax for shows that hyped voter fraud allegations and harangued the rest of the media (CNN. Dec. 8, 2020). 

 

In other words, at the time they were mocking Fox for losing their audience to Newsmax and OAN as a result of the refusal of Fox hosts to tell many of their viewers what they wanted to hear – namely that the real winner of the 2020 election was Donald Trump, and that the only reason why it appeared that Joe Biden won was due to election fraud. Everybody knows – who watched Fox during this period – that the prime-time hosts of Fox News, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham and Sean Hannity were not endorsing – were not endorsing – Donald Trump's claims of election fraud. There were hosts on Fox News like Lou Dobbs, who got fired for it, and Judge Jeanine and Maria Bartiromo, who did endorse those claims, but the Fox primetime hosts did not. And that's why every single one of these news reports – that I just read you – that is implicitly asserting or even explicitly claiming that Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham endorsed and supported and told their viewers valid Trump's election fraud claims, cannot point to a single instance in which they did that, because at the heart of this theory is a fabrication, the fabrication being that these Fox hosts were endorsing a theory of voter fraud that they secretly repudiated. In the case of Tucker Carlson, he didn't just secretly repudiate the election fraud claims, he went on the air and publicly did so in a particular episode that I remember because it caused enormous amounts of rage against Tucker Carlson from the Fox audience. 

In other words, Tucker Carlson went on the air and did a segment that he knew would anger his own audience, and he did it anyway, something which not a single host of CNN or MSNBC can ever point to themselves doing, namely going on the air and scolding their audience for believing things that were untrue or for buying into the conspiracy theories of the Democratic Party, even though there was no evidence for it. All of these journalists are demanding of Fox hosts that they do something that those journalists themselves never have the courage to do, which is tell their viewers something they don't want to hear. But that is something that Tucker Carlson did. So, while nobody can point to him going on the air at this time and endorsing the idea that this election was won by Joe Biden due to fraud, we can watch this segment as I'm about to show you, in which he did exactly the opposite. 

 

(Video 00:19:52) 

 

Tucker Carlson: Which brings us to the bombshell at the center of today's press conference that was delivered by former prosecutor Sidney Powell, who also served as General Mike Flynn’s lawyer. For more than a week, Powell has been all over conservative media with the following story: this election was stolen by a collection of international leftists who manipulated vote tabulating software on to flip millions of votes from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. The other day on television, Powell said of Trump that when the fraud is finally uncovered, “I think we'll find he had at least 80 million votes”. In other words, the rigged software stole about 7 million votes in this election. Here's some of what Powell said today about the software. 

 

Sidney Powell: One of its most characteristic features is its ability to flip votes. It can set and run an algorithm that probably ran all over the country to take a certain percentage of votes from President Trump and flip them to President Biden, which we might never have uncovered had the votes for President Trump not been so overwhelming in so many of these states that it broke the algorithm that had been plugged into the system. And that's what caused them to have to shut down in the states they shut down in. 

 

Tucker Carlson: That was a few hours ago but Sidney Powell has been saying similar things for days. On Sunday night, we texted her after watching one of her segments. What Powell was describing would amount to the single greatest crime in American history – millions of votes stolen in a day, democracy destroyed, the end of our centuries-old system of self-government. Not a small thing. 

 

Let me just stop there. You can see the tenor of this segment, which is that Tucker Carlson says this theory is a theory that Sidney Powell is endorsing. She is all over conservative media making these claims. He then goes on to say, if she's right in what she's saying, this would be the single greatest story, the single most important story, the grievous crime ever committed in American political history. You notice what he is not doing, very clearly not doing, endorsing those claims himself. He continues to distance himself from those claims by saying these are claims that she believes, these are claims that she is asserting. And he then goes on to explain that if this were true, this would be the biggest story in all of American history. Now, let's hear the rest. 

 

(Video 00:22:26) 

Tucker Carlson: Now, to be perfectly clear, we did not dismiss any of it. We don't dismiss anything anymore, particularly when it's related to technology. We've talked to too many Silicon Valley whistleblowers. We've seen too much. After four years, this may be the single most open-minded show on television. We literally do UFO segments, not because we're crazy or even been interested in the subject, but because there is evidence that UFOs are real and everyone lies about it. There's evidence that a lot of things that responsible people use to dismiss out of hand is ridiculous are in fact real. And we don't care who mocks it. The louder the Yale Political Science Department and the staff of The Atlantic Magazine scream “conspiracy theory”, the more interested we tend to be. That's usually a sign you're over the target.

 

A lot of people with impressive sounding credentials in this country are frauds. They have no idea what they're doing, their children posing as authorities and when they're caught, they lie and then they blame you for it. We see that every day. It's the central theme of the show and will continue to be. So, that's a long way of saying we took Sidney Powell seriously. We have no intention of fighting with her. We've always respected her work. We simply wanted to see the details. How could you not want to see them? So, we invited Sidney Powell on the show. We would have given her the whole hour. We would have given her the entire week, actually. That's a big story. But she never sent us any evidence, despite a lot of requests, polite requests, not a page. When we kept pressing, she got angry and told us to stop contacting her. When we checked with others around the Trump campaign, people in positions of authority, they told us Powell was never given them any evidence either in order to provide any.

 

Today at the press conference, Powell did say that electronic voting is dangerous. And she's right. We're with her there. But she never demonstrated that a single actual vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another. 

 

Okay. He just got done saying over and over that not only did Sidney Powell refuse to provide evidence in support of her theory – that Donald Trump is the real winner of the election and Biden won only because millions of votes had been switched – he told his audience she has never provided that evidence to anyone. He said, ‘We would love to have her on our show. We would give her the entire night, in fact, the entire week, because if she has evidence, we would want to hear it. But clearly, she doesn't have that evidence because she refuses to show it to anybody when asked’. 

This was at the peak of this controversy – it was November 19, two weeks, two and a half weeks after the election, while Trump was going around every day accusing the Biden campaign of having stolen the election through voting fraud and using Sidney Powell as the primary spokesperson for that theory. I'm asking you to leave aside for the moment your view of whether or not this is true or not. That's not relevant at the current moment. What I am instead interrogating is whether or not the narrative that has been universally adopted by the media that Tucker Carlson has no journalistic credibility because while he was privately expressing skepticism about the voting election theory, the voting fraud theory, he went on his show and endorsed it, I'm asking you to look at what he actually said and ask yourself if that is even viable. If anybody who has an iota of integrity could actually maintain that claim that Tucker Carlson went on the air and told his viewers that the election fraud theory was true. What I just showed you – three minutes of him carefully, though emphatically, doing exactly the opposite – making clear that there's no evidence at all for that claim. Let's watch the rest. 

 

(Video 00:26:30)

Tucker Carlson: Why are we telling you this? We're telling you this because it's true. And in the end, that's all that matters. The truth. It's our only hope. It's our best defense. And it's how we're different from them. We care what's true, and we know you care, too. That's why we told you. Maybe Sidney Powell will come forward soon with details on exactly how this happened and precisely who did it. Maybe she will. We are certainly hopeful that she will. What happened with the vote counting this month and at the polling places in Detroit and the polling places in Philadelphia and so much else actually matters. It matters no matter who you voted for. It matters whether or not you think this election is already over. Until we know the answers to those questions conclusively and we can agree on them, this country will not be united. 

 

The whole title of the segment, as you can see on the bottom of the screen, was “Voter fraud: separating fact from fiction.” And what he told his viewers is, look, you may feel real strongly about this. You may want this to be true. You may even believe that it's true. But what separates us from them – meaning the liberal outlets that will lie at the drop of a hat and not apologize when they get caught like it's happened so many times just in the last three weeks alone – what separates us from them is that we will not tell you things that we know you want to hear if we don't believe that they're true because there's no evidence for them. And in this case – meaning the case that Sidney Powell was making – we will not tell you it's true, because we have not seen evidence for it despite repeatedly asking. 

And as I said, before showing you this clip, at the time that all of this was happening, the liberal parts of the corporate media – CNN, ABC News, the networks, The New York Times, The Washington Post – were saying the exact opposite of what they're trying to convince you of now. They were mocking Fox for losing their audience, for not endorsing these theories because it was true that their main hosts were, in fact, not endorsing these theories. To the extent they were opining them at all, they were telling their audience there was no evidence for them, as I just showed you. 

How anybody can look at that four-minute segment with a straight face and claim that Tucker Carlson went on TV and endorsed the voting fraud theory is mystifying to me. That shows exactly what he just said, how willing and casual and frequent those sectors of the media lie. 

Beyond that, I think it's extremely important to note that all of these claims that are being made about what happened here come from a single source, just one source. They come from a legal brief that was filed by the lawyers for Dominion. It's a request for summary judgment. 

I just want to explain the legal standard that is at play here, because it's so relevant to how this document should be understood versus what the media is treating it as being. I don't think I have ever seen in my life the media take a legal brief in litigation, filed by one side, the lawyers for one side, and pretend that it is designed to – let alone that it actually does – reveal the objective truth. I've never seen any journalist take as gospel what is in a legal brief filed by one side in the lawsuit, which is exactly what they're doing. 

The reason why this document in particular is so meriting of extreme skepticism is because it is extremely difficult when you're suing a news outlet, like Fox, about a matter obviously in the public interest – such as whether or not the voting machines are secure or whether or not there was fraud in an election – it is an extremely difficult task not just to win a lawsuit against a media outlet for defamation, but even to allow the judge, even to convince the judge to let you get to trial. 

So, what happens is when you want to sue a media outlet for defamation about a public matter, you file the lawsuit, the other party responds, the media outlet, and then you have discovery, meaning the discovery of the facts. Discovery is where the lawyers for each side are allowed to ask each side for documents. So, the Fox lawyers asked Dominion for various documents in their possession, the Dominion lawyers asked for documents in their possession. That's how they got all these emails and group chats among all the Fox hosts and everything else that they're citing. During this process, they take depositions of each witness. So, they sit down with Rupert Murdoch, they sit down with the Fox CEO, Suzanne Scott, the Fox lawyers get to ask questions of Dominion and you produce a transcript with everybody's answers. And then what happens is the plaintiff in the lawsuit - the person or the company suing the media outlet - has to convince the judge that there is evidence that could allow a jury. If you looked at all of the evidence in the way most favorable to the plaintiff, if everything that was looked at by the jury was looked at in the most favorable way, then it's possible for a jury to rule in favor of the plaintiff, and only then will the judge allow there to even be a trial. The vast majority of lawsuits, the overwhelming majority of lawsuits brought by people claiming they were defamed by media organizations are dismissed before there's even a trial because the judge says that under the very stringent legal standards that you need to meet in order to win a case against a news organization, the evidence simply is not there. Even if the jury read everything in your favor, there still would not be enough of a case to allow a rational jury to rule in your favor. 

What the lawyers in this brief are trying to do is to take every piece of evidence turned out of its context and give it the most biased and favorable interpretation to Dominion. By definition, you cannot have a more biased document than this legal brief. I'm not suggesting at all by saying that the lawyers have done anything wrong. They're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. They're supposed to be distorting, in the favor of their client, the evidence, by giving it it’s most biased and favorable rating possible, which means ignoring evidence that would negate the claims they're making, leaving that out of the brief, oftentimes taking evidence out of context. There are some limits on what a lawyer can do, some ethical limits when doing that, you can't go so far as to explicitly lie. But lawyers have an enormous license in terms of their ability to twist and interpret facts in the most biased way possible.

In a sense, you could really say that a legal brief like this is the exact opposite of what journalism is supposed to do. Journalism is supposed to look at the facts in the least biased way possible, in the most objective way possible. Whereas these lawyers’ job is, is the opposite of a journal. They're not trying to show the truth. They're trying to make the case in the most biased way they can that a jury has the ability to read the evidence in a certain way in order to decide that trial in favor of their client so that the judge will allow there will be a trial in the first place. What is amazing is to watch a journalist take a legal brief like this and treat it as though it's dispositive of the truth. What makes it especially egregious that all of the media is treating this legal brief as though it provides the answers, as though it tells the story in an unbiased way, is that Fox hasn't even responded yet to this legal brief. They haven't even told its side of the story. Imagine if you were a journalist in a very controversial case wanting to report a story, and the only thing you did is go to one side of the story and wrote the entire article by interviewing that person and never even trying to interview the other side to hear the other side's arguments, to hear why certain things were taken out of context, to hear what the answers were. This is exactly what these journalists have done with this legal brief. And as I just showed you in so many ways, what they are actually doing is distorting the evidence, including the central claim that the Fox host, whom they want to destroy most, namely the primetime hosts, endorsed that theory. 

In fact, if you look at the legal document, even if you look at the one that the whole thing is based on, you will find that what's in the document contradicts in the most fundamental way the story the media is telling you. There is no place in this legal brief where the lawyers for Dominion claim that it was Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingraham who went on television and endorsed the voting fraud theory. To the contrary, they are citing Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham as proof that the voting theory was false and then saying the people were allowed to go on TV and support it weren't the prime time hosts Lou Dobbs, Jeanine Pirro, Maria Bartiromo and those people. 

Let me just show you a couple of excerpts where the Dominion lawyers are relying on Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham to make their case that it was the other hosts who supported the voting fraud theory, but not the primetime ones. So, here's one quote where they say, 

 

Indeed, multiple Fox witnesses called the allegations and the people making and repeating them, such as Sidney Powell and Jeanine Pirro – reckless at the time. Tucker Carlson told Sidney Powell on November 17 – this is what he told Sidney Powell directly in those e-mails he referenced: “You keep telling our viewers that millions of votes were changed by the software. I hope you will prove that very soon. You've convinced them that Trump will win. if you don't have conclusive evidence of fraud at that scale. It is a cruel and reckless thing to keep saying ex 177. And on November 21st, Carlson texted that it was shockingly reckless to claim that Dominion rigged the election if there's no one inside the company willing to talk, or internal Dominion documents or copies of the software showing that they did it and “as you know, there isn't” (Dominion Lawsuit Filing. Feb.16, 2023).

 

In other words, Carlson was berating Sidney Powell, exactly as he told his viewers that he was, about the fact that she was making claims for words, that she knew, there was no support. The legal brief also makes clear that Fox executives had confirmed with both, Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham that they would not go on air and support the voting fraud claims precisely because they didn't believe them. 

 

On November 6, after Cooper received the forwarded email from Rupert Murdoch stating it was very hard to credibly cry foul and warning of Trump becoming a sore loser, Ex 151, Cooper and Fox Executive Ron Mitchell discussed whether their primetime hosts, Hannity, Carlson and Ingraham would push false claims of election fraud: “I feel really good about Tucker and Laura. I think Sean will see the wisdom of this track eventually but, even this morning, he was still looking for examples of fraud” (Dominion Lawsuit Filing. Feb.16, 2023).

 

All of the evidence, including this legal brief, make clear that Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham were refusing to go on air and endorse this voting fraud claim. And, in fact, they were working as hard as they could to ensure that the Fox audience understood that there was no evidence for it. In other words, the legal brief and the videos, all negate the story that the media is telling you, which is why they can't point to anything on Tucker Carlson Show or on Laura Ingraham Show that supports their claim that they were endorsing what Adam Schiff and what these Democratic leaders are calling the big lie because they didn’t. 

Let me address a couple of critiques of Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham, that I think to deserve some more consideration. What it seems as though the anti-Fox part of the media is saying is that Tucker Carlson basically should have engaged in self-destructive behavior. He should have put on this Superman's cape and he should have gone on the air and done way more than what he did in that segment that I just showed you, which is to tell his audience there was no evidence for this fraud, that he instead basically should have mocked his audience. He should have called them idiots. He should have told them they were stupid, that they were believing a deranged theory, and that essentially he should have destroyed his relationship with his Fox audience by using language that he was using in private instead of using language a bit more respectful of that audience. 

Let me ask again, when is even a single time, just even once, that any member of CNN or of NBC News or CBS or ABC was willing to do what they seemed to be insisting Tucker Carlson should have done – which is go on the air and tell their audience that they're all a bunch of idiots who have been convinced of insane conspiracy theories. I suppose if you really hold up somebody as this kind of Superman figure and demand that they act as such, you can make the claim that what he did in that segment that I showed you wasn't enough. He should have really assaulted his audience. But that is bizarre to demand of Fox hosts if you can't show that you've been willing to do that yourself. 

The reality is that the hardest thing for a journalist to do – sometimes if you have integrity, you have to do it – but I'm speaking from experience, the hardest thing for a journalist to do is to go and tell their audience things that they know their audience doesn't want to hear and does not believe. And when you go and do that – as I've done many times, as I'm about to show you – the effective way to do that is not by telling your audience that they're all a bunch of idiots or deranged maniacs but to show the audience – your viewers, your readers – that you have respect for their views, that you understand why they've reached that conclusion but you, nonetheless, are here to convince them through evidence that what they believe is misguided and wrong. 

One of the times I've done that – I've done this many times on this show, for example, I have, many times, for example, expressed my support for narratives that I knew this audience did not believe. I did a whole segment once on why Lula was not a Communist, and why I didn't think he won due to voting fraud, even though I knew a lot of my audience believed that was true. I've oftentimes criticized the right for essentially using manipulative claims of anti-Semitism to shut down debate over Israel, much like the left uses racism accusations to shut down debate – even though I know a lot of my audience doesn't want to hear that. 

The very first time I’ve ever done that and I had to do it, was way back in 2010 before I was even an established journalist. I was writing at Salon and I had what I knew was largely a left-liberal audience. Not entirely. I've always had support from a lot of independents and libertarians, but by and large because I began by writing against the War on Terror and critiquing the Bush-Cheney administration, most of my audience, back in the early days of my writing, were Democrats, leftists and liberals. And, in 2010, the Supreme Court issued this ruling against Citizens United by a 5 to 4 ruling that held that certain laws of campaign spending finance laws were unconstitutional on First Amendment grounds. And when Citizens United was issued, there was an absolute consensus, among everybody from the center all the way to the left, that this is one of the most evil decisions on the planet. And because I was someone who wrote a lot about free speech and the First Amendment, which was the ground on which Citizens United was issued, I was getting all kinds of pressure from my readers to tell them what I thought about Citizens United. People started complaining, “Why haven't you written about Citizens United?” And the reason was that I agreed with the majority. I agreed that these campaign finance laws were a violation of the free speech clause. Remember, the case arose because this advocacy group, Citizens United, spent money to produce a film critical of Hillary Clinton before the 2008 election, and they were told they weren't allowed to spend their own money to produce an anti-Hillary film. And to me, that was a clear violation of free speech. I agreed with the conservative majority. And I was not going to lie to my audience and tell them that I disagreed because I knew, the minute I did that, I would no longer have any integrity at all. I would just be kind of a performing seal for liberals, and I had no interest in doing that. Instead, I had to tell them that, in fact, I agreed with the majority. 

The 2010 article I wrote was entitled “What the Supreme Court got right” and the headline says, “It's best for the government to stay out of the business of restricting political advocacy.” So, I had to tell my audience what I knew they wouldn't want to hear. And believe me, they were enraged with me. I had to spend at least a month going back and writing four or five different articles, answering all their different attacks on my view. You see, I'm going to just show you the first paragraph that I wrote, that the tone of my article was not to say you're all a bunch of tyrannical censors for wanting the government to prohibit people from spending their money on political messaging. I instead showed respect for my audience, look, I understand where you're coming from but, nonetheless, I want to explain to you why you're wrong. And this is the tone I used:

 The Supreme Court yesterday in a 5-4 decision declared unconstitutional (on First Amendment grounds), campaign finance regulations which restrict the ability of corporations and unions to use funds from their general treasury for “electioneering” purposes. The case, Citizens United v. FEC presents some very difficult free speech questions, and I'm deeply ambivalent about the court's ruling. There are several dubious aspects of the majority's opinion (principally its decision to invalidate the entire campaign finance scheme rather than exercising “judicial restraint” through a narrower holding). Beyond that, I believe that corporate influence over our political process is easily one of the top sicknesses afflicting our political culture. But there are also very real First Amendment interests implicated by laws which bar entities from spending money to express political viewpoints (Salon. Jan. 22, 2010). 

 

That is how you go to your audience and instead of alienating them on purpose by telling them they're all a bunch of idiots or censors, you reason with them and you speak to them in a respectful tone and you say, ‘I understand where you're coming from, but here's why you're wrong.’ That's what Tucker Carlson did. As I said, he could have gone about it in a much more aggressive way and essentially destroyed forever his relationship with his audience. I understand why CNN and MSNBC wanted him to do that. They've been jealous for years of the fact that Fox has a gigantic audience and they have none. They would love for the Fox host to burn down their relationship with their audience. But they're demanding something of him that they never would have done themselves and that wouldn't have been smart to do anyway. 

The one critique that I think people have made of Tucker Carlson in this entire controversy that merits an answer that we don't yet have is an email where he seemed to suggest that the White House correspondent Jackie Heinrich, should be fired for having fact-checked a Donald Trump tweet. And I want to ask you, any of you who believe that there is validity to this criticism, what is Tucker Carlson's answer to that critique? What is Fox News’ explanation for what it is that he's saying in that email? You don't know the answer. You don't know the explanation. Because, again, Fox News hasn't even responded to this legal brief yet – this legal brief where lawyers are not only entitled, but often do take things wildly out of context. And if you really dig deep into that email – and I'm not trying here to be a lawyer for Tucker Carlson – maybe what he said in the heat of the moment deserves a lot of criticism. We’ll find out once we hear all the explanations. I have not talked to anyone at Fox News about any of these issues, nor did I talk to anyone at Fox News before putting this program together. I just used what was in the public domain, knowing that Fox is prohibited from talking about it because of the lawsuit. But if you look deep into those emails, what you will find is that what Fox hosts were concerned about was not that Jackie Heinrich and other Fox reporters were fact-checking Trump's claim of election fraud and lacking evidence, as I just showed you. Tucker Carlson himself was doing the same thing. So, anyone who is going to claim that Tucker Carlson wanted Jackie Heinrich fired because she pointed out that there was no evidence to Trump's election fraud claim would have to reconcile that accusation with the fact that Tucker Carlson went on his own show and did exactly the same thing. What they were concerned about was that. the tweet she chose to fact-check from Trump was a tweet in which Trump implied inaccurately that Fox primetime hosts supported his election fraud theory. And so, what Jackie Heinrich's tweet seemed to be doing was fact-checking not so much Donald Trump, but the primetime hosts on Fox by saying the primetime hosts on Fox were spreading false theories about the election fraud, when, in reality, none of them had been doing that. That's what they seemed angry about. But we should hear from Tucker Carlson, we should hear from Fox News, in response to that accusation, something that we have not yet done to date, which is why it's so irresponsible for media outlets to assume they know the entire story. I'm open to the idea or the possibility that what he did, in that case, was wrong and I'd like to hear his explanation – and once we do, we can discuss it. But until then, if you look at what actually was being said, it is what I just described. 

Obviously, Tucker Carlson has an open invitation to go on his show, to go anywhere else, including my show, to explain that. The reality is that as long as this lawsuit is pending, Fox will only speak through its lawyers. But I presume in this legal brief that they will soon file, they will have an explanation or a response, and we will then be able to adequately judge it. 

The bottom line is this: if there is another case where journalists decided to assert an entirely devastating, accusatory framework based on nothing more than the accusations of a lawyer and a lawsuit, I'd like to know what that is. But they're doing it here for obvious reasons, which is they have always wanted to find a way to destroy Fox – they've never been able to find that way, and they think that they've now found it by concocting this theory. The problem is that the theory, in order for it to work, requires them to prove something that is blatantly untrue, which is that the Fox host themselves, the primetime ones, went on the air and told their viewers that Trump lost only because of voting fraud, when, in fact, none of them ever said that, which is why they can't ever point you to a segment where they did and to the extent they spoke on it at all, it was to warn their audience that there was no evidence for it. 

So, the lying here, as usual, is coming from the part of the media that always holds itself out as the protector of the public against disinformation, when, in fact, as usual, they're the ones who disseminate it most aggressively. 


So, to conclude our show, as I indicated at the top, this is the 50th episode of System Update, which I have to say may not seem like a huge and incredible number to you but – having been the person who was working with my team every day to put it together – it's been really quite a kind of an adventure to have – to figure out from scratch what it is that we want to do this year with this show, what we hope to accomplish and figure out the best way to do it. 

I just wanted to take this moment to reflect a little bit on how this show has grown very rapidly beyond all of our wildest expectations and the way in which Rumble has become so crucial not only to the ability of our show to reach a large audience but the ability of so much in independent media to be able to do so without really any constraints of any kind. 

We on our show have already created an audience size that every single night exceeds 200,000-250,000 people watching in various ways, which is starting to approach what the corporate media shows on primetime at CNN and MSNBC are able to attract for people under 65, despite the fact that we're only two months old, that we have no large corporation behind us supporting us, that we rely entirely on ourselves and on our audience to promote our show. That has become incredibly, incredibly encouraging. 

There are shows, like Russell Brand's program, that air daily as well, that have been around for a few months longer than ours, that have an audience size even larger. I just want to show you some data that I think is incredibly encouraging about the future of independent media and the ability of Rumble to really foster it here. 

Here, for example, from a Pew Research poll in May of 2022, which is now eight months ago, the numbers have almost certainly grown. You see here that 20% of Americans say that they've heard of Rumble, which is incredibly exciting, that we're able to build audience sizes this large when only 20% of Americans have yet to hear of Rumble. And it also means that the potential for growth is so enormous, given that 80% of Americans have yet to hear about this platform. As I said, my guess is that's much higher already since Rumble is spending a lot of money on national campaign ads, but the ability to construct an entirely different part of the media ecosystem – one that answers not to any demands for censorship or corporate advertisers – or the ability for people to demand that Rumble censor things or de-platform is very, very encouraging. 

Rumble has already proven – when they defied the government of France’s demands to depart from RT – that they would rather lose the market than obey censorship demands. They are in lawsuits with Google over Google's manipulation of the algorithms. They have really demonstrated a commitment to not just independent media, but to the core values of free inquiry and free speech that I believe are absolutely vital to building a genuine alternative to Big Tech. 

Equally interesting are some of these demographics about who is watching Rumble. Here you see that despite the media claim that it's just for the far-right, it's just for MAGA – notwithstanding the fact that the two hosts who have been the most promoted here on Rumble with live nightly shows are me and Russell Brand – you see that one of the five viewers of shows on Rumble identifies as Democrats, and the demographics are skewing very young –you see at least 80% of the people under 65 with a fairly sizable number being between 18 and 49. There is a very diverse range of viewers who are watching our show. It's to the point where even mainstream media outlets, very begrudgingly, are starting to acknowledge Rumble’s success. 

Here, in October 2022, there's an article from The Atlantic entitled “What if Rumble is the Future of the Social Web” and it says It's the most serious of the all-tech social media platforms. 

There's another article that actually was very surprising to me, in its honesty, from New York magazine that's headlined “The Only Success Story in Right-Wing Social Media”. And it talks about Rumble’s success and it even acknowledges, despite this headline, that, as I just said, much of the content on this platform is not right-wing at all, nor are many of the viewers. And as Rumble begins to diversify its programming to gain an even better reputation for being a place that guarantees free speech and free inquiry to everybody, not just people of a certain ideology, this will only continue to grow. 

I think one of the things that we've been doing is experimenting with different ways that our show would work. The kind of conventional wisdom is that in the Internet era, people have very short attention spans and as a result, in order to attract viewers and keep viewers, you need to kind of keep this kinetic, frenzied pace where you're constantly changing stories and constantly bringing on new gas that people only can pay attention for five or six or seven minutes at a time. And one of the things we set out to do early on was disproved that view. We respect the attention span of our audience. We sometimes take the entire show, as we did tonight, to delve very deeply into just one topic, which oftentimes is crucial for telling the full story, especially if what you're trying to do is tell a story that is different from the conventional wisdom on the rest of media. If, for example, all I wanted to do was to say, Oh, this legal brief shows that Fox host got caught lying, I would need about 3 minutes. Everybody would understand what I was saying. Everybody would nod their head. But since the narrative I wanted to present to you, since the story that we wanted to show you as true, completely contradicts what virtually every other media outlet is saying, it's necessary to take the time to delve in an in-depth way to show you the evidence that uproots those core assumptions. 

It's very similar to when I began writing about politics in 2005 as blogs were starting to really emerge, the conventional wisdom back then was the only way to attract an audience was if you spoke in one or two sentences. Blog posts had to be this short and you had to constantly post 20 or 25 a day changing topics at all times, or else the people wouldn't want to read them. And I would write every single day 3,000 to 4,000-word very detailed posts about one topic containing all kinds of evidence and hard evidence of documentation and statistics and all that happened is my audience size continued to grow because I really believe, and I've always believed, that there is a real appetite for actual journalism. 

It is true that if you're just feeding people superficial tripe if you're just talking about the news gossip of the day, people don't want to hear much of that. They're willing to give you three or four minutes of a trivial topic but if you're creating a show that has a high enough quality, that is designed to inform people and to illuminate – not based on my assertions, or in my words, but with evidence – people are willing to give you their time because it is something nutritious and provocative and thought-provoking and ultimately real journalism. 

The fact that our audience size continues to grow, the more we continue to follow this format, is something that's very encouraging and we expect, as I said early on, that within a year, we strongly believe that the audience size for our show, for the other shows that Rumble is investing in as a nightly live show will have not just an audience similar to but greater than the standard audience that the largest news corporations in the country have for their nightly shows that have been around for many years, then they have a much greater budget. 

We strongly believe we will soon equal and then surpass that audience size and continue to grow. This is the part of the media that is really thriving, the independent part of the media that operates with no constraints, that is not captive to any dogma and that is not susceptible or vulnerable to censorship of every kind. That continues to be the kind of mentality and driving framework of our show. We're thrilled that it has continued to work for the first 50 episodes, and we look forward to continuing throughout the year in building the show even further. 

 

So that concludes our show for tonight. Thank you so much for watching and staying with us through our first 50 episodes. We really could not have done it without your support. The fact that it continues to grow is what enables us to keep doing what we're doing. 

I hope you have a great evening, everyone. Have a great night, everybody. 

 

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Trump Mocks Concerns About Epstein; Trump Continues Biden's Policy of Arming Ukraine; Trump and Lula Exchange Barbs Over Brazil
System Update #483

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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 Much of the MAGA world was in turmoil, confusion and anger yesterday –understandably so – after the Trump DOJ announced it was closing the Epstein files and its investigation with no further disclosures of any kind. After all this happened, some attempt was made to try and pin the blame or isolate the blame for all of this on Attorney General Pam Bondi. Yet, Donald Trump himself, today, when asked about all of this, went much further than anyone else when meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the White House again: President Trump actually mocked and angrily dismissed any concerns over the Epstein matter and how it was handled. 

On our second segment, one of the uniting views of Trump supporters over the last four years has been opposition to the Biden administration's policy of arming, funding, and fueling Ukraine in its war against Russia. Yesterday, however, at the same meeting with Netanyahu, Trump announced that he would continue the Biden policy that he had spent so many years criticizing by now providing defensive arms at least to Ukraine, and he did so based on the longstanding neocon/liberal view that Putin is completely untrustworthy and therefore Russia must be thought because of Putin. That's what Trump himself said. 

Then, we’ll comment on Trump’s lengthy tweet attacking Brazil for its ongoing prosecution of former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro, during the BRICS Summit being held in Rio de Janeiro. This was something we were going to cover last night and didn't have time to, but we will tonight. Brazil's President Lula da Silva quickly responded, very defiantly, by basically telling Trump to mind his own business. 

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Last night, we covered quite extensively the decision by the Trump Justice Department, not even six months into the administration, to completely shut down and close and stop all investigations into Jeffrey Epstein, as well as announcing that there will be no further disclosures of any documents of any kind, that whatever they've released so far, which has basically been nothing – not basically, has been nothing – is all you're going to get. 

This is a blatant betrayal of multiple promises made by key Trump officials over the last four years, before they were in the White House, but was also a complete 180 in terms of what key Trump influencers and pundits had been saying, including several pundits who are now running the FBI, such as Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, as well as the Justice Department, including Pam Bondi. 

We even showed you an interview that Alina Habba, the Trump attorney who is now the U.S. attorney for New Jersey, appointed by Donald Trump, did with Pierce Morgan while she was in the government, just in February, where she claimed they have a whole bunch of very incriminating lists with shocking names. She said there's video and there are all kinds of documents that are shocking, in her words, and she said they're going to be released over time because we've gone long enough where people who do these sorts of things, including are involved in the Epstein scandal, have no accountability. She said that is ending with the Trump administration. There's going to be accountability. 

Yesterday, the Trump Justice Department said, “No, there's nothing here. We looked. There's no such thing as a client list.” We know we've been promising and that JD Vance repeatedly said, “Where's the client list?” Donald Trump Jr. said, “Anyone hiding the client lists is a scumbag.” Dan Bongino, Kash Patel, Pam Bondi accused Biden officials of basically covering up predatory pedophilia by refusing to release the Jeffrey Epstein client list. Now, they're saying there's no client list, that thing we've been talking about and accusing Biden officials of hiding and promising to disclose, that doesn't exist. 

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Trump DOJ: There's Nothing to the Epstein Story; State Dept: Syria's Al-Qaeda are No Longer "Terrorists"
System Update #482

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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One of the most significant scandals among MAGA pundits and operatives within pro-Trump discourse generally over the last four years has been the one involving Jeffrey Epstein. 

Now, in less than five months, the DOJ announced today, the one under Pam Bondi, that they are closing the investigation, given the certainty that they say they have that Epstein had no client list. There's no such thing as an Epstein client list, he never tried to blackmail anyone and no powerful people were involved whatsoever with his sexual abuse of minors. They also say that he undoubtedly killed himself: there's no question about that. 

All of this is such a blatant betrayal of what was promised all of these years, such that all but the most blindly loyal Trump followers – like the real cult numbers, a lot of them almost certainly paid to be that – are reacting with understandable confusion and anger over what happened today and over the last several months. We'll delve into all of this and what this means. 

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Earlier today, the Justice Department issued a statement, essentially announcing that they no longer consider any of the questions surrounding what had long been the Epstein scandal to be worthwhile investigation; that essentially all of these questions have been answered, that there's really nothing to look into. 

You can read the Justice Department's statement here.

They're saying this client list that most Trump supporters, I would say, have been accusing the U.S. government, of hiding to protect all the powerful people on this list, now, that they're in power – people like Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino and Kash Patel, now they're in charge – they're saying, no, actually there is no client list at all. There's at least no incriminating client list, whatever that means. 

I don't know if there is a client list or not, but according to them, there's no incriminating client list. I don't know how you can have a client list that's not incriminating: to be a client of Jeffrey Epstein seems inherently incriminating. They seem to have said what the White House briefing said today when asked about this, because as we'll show you, Pam Bondi went on Fox News and was asked, “Are you going to release the client list?” And she said, “It's sitting on my desk for review.” 

Trump had strongly suggested he would order it released. Now they're saying, “You know what? There is no client list.” 

So, all these claims that Jeffrey Epstein had recordings of prominent individuals who he invited to his island, who had sex with minors, evidently, there's no incriminating material of any kind that would implicate any powerful person. Just not there, they checked. They checked the storage closets, they looked under the beds, just couldn't find anything. All the stuff they had been claiming was there for years, screaming and pounding the table on podcasts, making a lot of money over it, too, accusing Biden officials of hiding this all for corrupt ends, just not there. They looked, couldn't find it. 

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Glenn Takes Your Questions on the Ukraine War, Peter Thiel and Transhumanism, Trump’s Middle East Policies, the New Budget Bill, and More
System Update #481

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

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I don't know if you heard, but there's some breaking news, and that is that tomorrow is July 4, which in the United States is a major holiday. The Fourth of July is the day that we celebrate our independence from the tyranny of the British Crown. Tomorrow we will be taking the holiday off in large part because the appetite for watching political content or political news apps and some big political story on July 4 is quite reduced and so everyone can use a three-day weekend. 

What we usually do on Friday night is the Q&A session, something very important to us and something that we try to do at least once a week because it's one of the main benefits that we believe not only give to our Locals members but also receive from them. 

It's always kind of a hodgepodge, but it always ends up as one of our most interesting shows, we think, throughout the week, one of the shows that produces the best reaction. Since we're not doing a show on Friday, we're going to do it tonight instead. We have some excellent questions. There's one really confrontational question – I was going to say a bitchy question, but I want to be a little more professional in that – let's say confrontational questioning, critical. We're going to try to deal with that one as well. 

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So one of the things that shows throughout the week is that I happen to speak a lot. I analyze things, I dissect things, I read evidence, I show you videos, I talk to guests, I ask them questions. And what we try to do on our Q&A is to be respectful with the question and give an in-depth answer. 

I'd rather answer four or five by giving in-depth answers that I hope are thought-provoking than just speeding through them. I'd rather do a substantive response to four or five than a quick, superficial one to nine or 10. So let's go do that. 

The first one is from @If TruthBeTold and this is what they asked: 

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Well, let's begin with the fact that there is a reasonably effective instrument for preventing foreign interests and foreign lobbies from exerting influence in our country in a way that's stealthy or covert; that’s the FARA registration, which requires foreign agents acting on behalf of other countries to register as such so that everybody knows if they're slinking around Congress, whispering in politicians' ears, asking for legislation on behalf of a foreign government because they've disclosed it. 

And so if you work for the Iranian government, they're paying you to influence members of the legislator, if you do that for Qatar, if you do it for Russia, if you do it for Saudi Arabia – and the premise of the question correct, huge numbers of foreign interests lobby in the United States, you're required to declare that publicly on a FARA registration form and you can go see those, they're publicly available, and you can see who's lobbying on behalf of foreign governments for pay. 

One of the problems is that, for some reason – and you can fill in the blanks here – AIPAC has become exempt from that requirement. AIPAC is a lobbying group that reports to the Israeli government, meets all the time with the Israeli government, and gets funding from Israeli sources. Ted Cruz tried to deny that AIPAC is operating on behalf of a foreign government. Tucker Carlson asked him, “Well, has there ever been a single position that AIPAC has taken that deviates from the Netanyahu government?” and Ted Cruz said, “Sure, they do it all the time.” And Tucker Carlson said, “Oh, that's great. Why don't you name one?” And of course, Ted Cruz couldn't because it never happens, because AIPAC is an arm of the Israeli government trying to exert influence in the United States. 

And yet, for some reason, for a lot of reasons, in contrast to all the other examples I just named, when you have to fill out a foreign agent registration form, people who work for AIPAC or on behalf of the Israel lobby don't. Their claim is, “Oh, we're not lobbying for Israel. We're lobbying for the United States. We just believe that if the United States does everything that Israel wants, that's good for the United States. We're an American group. We're patriotic. We're America first. We just think that America benefits when it does everything that the Israeli government tells it to do.” 

John F. Kennedy strongly advocated and started to demand that the predecessor group to AIPAC register as an agent of a foreign government. He couldn't understand why it didn't have to, alone among all the other groups. And it never ended up happening because JFK's presidency ended when he was killed. 

Again, I'm not drawing any kind of causal link there. I'm not even trying to imply it. I'm just giving you the chronology as to why that never came back. And since then, nobody has ever talked about that. So, that's one thing. The other is that AIPAC is uniquely well-financed in terms of being a lobby operating on behalf of foreign governments. It hides that in a lot of ways, but I'll just give you an example. In the last Congress, there were two members in particular who AIPAC identified as being too critical of Israel. They were both Black members of Congress who represented primarily Black, poor districts, and the rhetoric started to become, which is threatening to AIPAC, ‘Wait, why are we sending billions and billions and billions of dollars to Israel when Israelis enjoy things like better access to health care and more subsidies for college than our own citizens do, when millions of Israelis have better standards of living than millions of people in the United States, including in my district? Why are we sending the money there instead of keeping it at home and improving our lives? 

Two of the people they identified as highly vulnerable were Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush. I've certainly had criticisms of both of them, particularly Jamaal Bowman, but also Cori Bush – but that's not why AIPAC was interested in moving them from Congress. They poured $15 million – $15 million into a single house district in a Democratic primary – they found this Black politician in St. Louis to challenge Cori Bush, who promised to be an AIPAC puppet, and he has kept his promise. Wesley Bell is his name. He should put AIPAC in the middle of his name because it's much more descriptive of what he is now. And they just removed Cori Bush from Congress and put in this person who is basically the same as Cori Bush, except he loves and worships and devotes himself to Israel, never criticizes it. 

They did the same with Jamaal Bowman. They got George Latimer, who's white, but he was a county executive known in the district, and they poured $15 million into that. I don't know of any other interest group on behalf of a foreign government that has not just the ability, but the brazenness, the willingness, to be so open about destroying people’s careers in Congress that they're not sufficiently loyal to a foreign government. 

So the question is, well, what's the solution? Are you more willing to consider the problem of money in politics? I've never doubted the problems of big money in politics. I've always recognized that there are massive problems with huge amounts of money in politics. The founders did as well. They were capitalists. Obviously, they weren't opposed to financial inequality. They were often very rich themselves, property owners and the like, but they also warned that massive inequality in the financial realm can easily spill over into something they did want to avoid, which is inequality in the political realm or the legal realm. And clearly that's happening. 

The problem is, how do you restrict the expenditure of money for political purposes without running afoul of the First Amendment? Let me just give you an example of what this kind of law would entail. This was at the heart of Citizens United, which was the five-to-four Supreme Court decision in 2010 that invalidated certain amounts of financial campaign finance restrictions on the grounds that it violated the First Amendment. 

Let's say you're a group that wants to improve conditions for the homeless, and you want to bring attention to the problems of the homeless and solutions you really believe in as a citizen; you're just like trying to pursue a political cause that you believe in. You get together a bunch of money from your friends from other groups, you save your money and use that money to publish films, ads and documentaries about which politicians are helping the homeless and which ones are harming them. Then, you also may hire somebody who has influence in Congress, who can get you into doors to talk to members of Congress, to try to persuade them to enact legislation that will help the homeless. If you have laws that say that you can't lobby, you can’t spend money on political advocacy. It's not just going to mean that Israel and Raytheon can't go into Congress or that Facebook and Palantir can't; It's going to mean that nobody can. And that clearly is a restriction on your ability to, not your ability but your right under the Constitution to petition your government for redress, to speak freely about grievances you have against your government. 

I've always thought the better solution than trying to restrict First Amendment rights by eliminating money from politics is to equalize it through public campaign financing. So, if your opponent raises $10 million through billionaire spending or very rich people, the government will match your funds and give you $10 billion. 

We do have matching funds in certain places. We also have a better tradition and culture of small-dollar donors that compete with big-money donors. I mean Bernie Sanders' campaign drowned in money in 2016 because of small donors. AOC has insane amounts of money that largely come from small donors over the internet. Donald Trump had a ton of small donors, in addition to very big ones. Zohran Mamdani, actually, got so much money at the start of the campaign from grassroots donors that he actually asked them not to give anymore because, under the matching fund system of the city, where you can raise money up to a certain level and then they match it, he reached the maximum. He didn't need any more money because he wanted to get the matching funds. 

That has been encouraging; the internet and various fundraising networks enable small donor contributions to a huge amount, making people competitive, who aren't relying on big money. But once you start trying to regulate how people can spend their money for political causes, remember Citizens United grew out of an advocacy group, they were conservative, they produced a documentary, publishing, highlighting and documenting what they believed were the crimes and corruptions of the Clintons before the 2008 election. So, they made a film about one of the most powerful politicians on Earth and it contained information they wanted the general public to see before voting, potentially making her president. And that was, they were told, a violation of campaign finance laws because they were a nonprofit, and under the campaign finance laws in question, corporations, including nonprofits or unions, were banned from spending money 60 days before an election. 

That's why groups like the ACLU and labor unions sided with Citizens United and argued that this campaign finance law, which the court, by a 5-4 decision, overturned, is in fact unconstitutional. People forget the ACLU and labor unions that also would have been restricted, were also part of the urging of the majority decision, even though it's considered a conservative decision. 

I think there are much better ways to equalize the playing field when it comes to lobbying: make AIPAC and all of its operatives and the entire Israel lobby required to register under FARA, just like everybody else does. If they don't, they go to prison, just like anybody else does who doesn't file the FARA forms deliberately or intends to deceive. And then, also, find ways to make the playing field even without telling people, citizens, that they can't spend their money that they earn and that they make on political advocacy, on campaigns to convince the public of certain things against various other candidates. I think there are many better ways to do it than that. 

 

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All right, @TearDrinker asked the following. And this is somebody, I'm quite sure, that if you start crying, he gets so happy, he'll drink your tears. He looks for that. That's who asked this question. So, I think we do have a lot of very noble and benevolent people in our audience but we also have some very dark people in the audience and I think @TearDrinker is one of those. Nonetheless, the question is very good. We all have dark sides, good sides and bad sides. We're very complex. So is our audience. And here's his very good question: 

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I had several people on my show from the start who were vehement opponents of U.S. financing, NATO financing of the war in Ukraine. Jeffrey Sachs was one, John Mearsheimer was another and Stephen Walt was another. We had several people, we had members of Congress, Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, part of the MAGA movement, Rand Paul as well, RFK Jr., when he was running for president. We had a lot of people but Professor Mearsheimer, Jeffrey Sachs and Stephen Walt in particular were overwhelmingly prescient in predicting what would happen, even though at the time you weren't allowed to say this because if you said this, if you said reality, you would get accused of being a Russian propagandist or pro-Kremlin or all the things they use to smear people who are questioning the prevailing propaganda. Just like we saw in this last war, if you questioned U.S. bombing of Iran or the Israeli attack on Iran, you were accused of pro-Mullahs, loving the Ayatollahs, same thing every time. 

One of the things that they were saying is like, “Look, it doesn't matter how many weapons you give to Ukraine, it does matter how much money you hand to Kiev.” Even if it didn't get all sucked up in the massive corruption that has long governed Ukraine – which of course it will, but let's assume it didn’t, let's just say it was a very honest, well-accounted for country driven by integrity and principle and all the money was used for exactly what it was earmarked for – even if that happened and even if the Ukrainian people were incredibly courageous and they were at the beginning but even so… 

You know, there's a dog behavior that I've seen so many times. If you go to a dog park and two dogs are going to fight and they're on neutral ground, no one owns the dog park, the stronger dog is likely to win. But if you took those same dogs and the weaker dog in the dog park was at home and the stronger one in the park went to the house of the weaker dog, the weaker dog would suddenly become very strong. And typically, I'm not saying in all cases, obviously a Poodle and a Rottweiler, it's going to be the same result, but I'm saying when it's even remotely close, when you're defending your home – and this is definitely true in the canine world, they fight much more passionately, much more aggressively, much more confidently. And I think that's the same for human beings. 

And so the Ukrainians were very feisty, very punching above their weight at the beginning but even so, and all these people on my show said it, and I got convinced, that it was true from the very start, even if everything went right for the Ukrainians, even if you give them everything they want, the simple fact that Russia is so much bigger and that this is going to be a ground war of attrition between two neighboring countries, meant that inevitably Russia was going to win. It might take a year, it might take two years, it might take five years. The only possibility is that the Ukrainian population of young men, and as they expanded the draft, it became middle-aged, young to middle-aged men, were going to be obliterated, were going to disappear and obviously were huge numbers of young Russian men, but they have so many more that they can just keep replenishing them and losing that amount without having any real effect on Russia, which is like a gigantic country. And that's what's happened between the people who were killed in Ukraine, the people who fled and deserted, and there are a lot of them. There's basically a generation of Ukrainian men missing, which in turn means women aren't dating and aren't marrying. It just destroys the whole society.

The last time we really heard any promises that there was going to be a change was in 2023. There was going to be this great counterattack during the summer, like David Petraeus and Max Boot and all the people who promised the same thing was going to happen in Iraq with the surge were they telling us, “No, this counterattack is going to change everything.” It didn't change anything. Russia has maintained the 22%, 23%, 24% of Ukraine that they occupied, and they've been expanding more and more. There's no way to stop that unless you send in NATO troops or U.S. troops to have a direct war with Russia, which would by definition be World War III. 

The EU, has these – I'm going to say they're primarily women and I say that because a lot of left-wing parties in Europe ran explicitly on the idea that they were going to put women in foreign policy positions because women are less likely to be militaristic, warmongering, seeking conflict, they're much more likely to rely on diplomacy to resolve disputes because it's more in the woman nature. This was the feminist argument, a very essentialist and reductive view of how women and men resolve conflicts. 

But instead, you look at these warmongers, and you're up there like Ursula von der Leyen, who's the president of the EU. Nobody elected her. She's a maniac, a sociopath. The foreign affairs minister is the former prime minister of Estonia. It's like a million people. She's now like the foreign minister; she goes around demanding more and more war. And then the Green Party in Germany is the worst. They ran on this feminist foreign policy explicitly. And they have Annalena Baerbock as the Foreign Minister: she sounds like something out of 1939, talking about the glories of war. 

And even with all that, the Europeans are going to send in troops, the Americans are going to send in troops and so the more we prolong this war, the more we destroy Ukraine, the country, and the more we sacrifice the lives of Ukrainians. And that has been the neocon argument. It's like, you don't have to worry. Americans aren't dying. It's the Ukrainians who are dying. Remember, they're not fighting voluntarily. They're conscripted. A lot of them are fleeing, a lot of them are deserting. They just don't have the people to fight. 

Over the last couple of weeks, there have been announcements that the U.S. is going to slow down or stop certain weapons transfers that had previously been allocated under the Biden administration. One of the people who is announcing this, who's deciding this, is Elbridge Colby. You remember that Elbridge Colby was one that the neocons tried so hard to stop his confirmation to the high levels of the Pentagon because his view has long been that we have no interest in a lot of the wars we fight, including in Ukraine, including in the Middle East, we ought to be focusing on China and the Pacific. And neocon groups that obviously want the United States focused on fighting in the Middle East, funding Ukraine, were desperate to keep him out. 

There are a few others. Some of those non-interventionists who made the high levels of the Pentagon, like Dan Caldwell, who ended up getting fired because they fabricated leaks against him that were completely fake. We'll do a show on that one time. But there are still several of them. And so Elbridge Colby, when he announced this policy, like, Look, we were going to ship all these munitions and missiles to Ukraine, but now we can't. The reason we can, and we have gone over this before, is because U.S. stockpiles are dangerously low. We don't have these missiles and munitions to give, at least not consistently with making sure that we have enough in the case we want to fight another war. And the reasons are obvious. We've been sending missiles and munitions and drones and everything else we have to Ukraine and to Israel to fuel their wars. 

Israel has multiple wars, not just in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, in Lebanon, in Syria. It has bombed the Houthis many times and attacked Iran. The United States has been arming and funding and just sending huge amounts of weaponry to Ukraine. And also remember, President Trump re-instituted and escalated President Biden's campaign of bombing the Houthis. And the idea was we're going to obliterate the Houthis. After a month, President Trump got the report and saw how much money we were spending, how many weapons we were using, how much money it was costing, and nothing was really getting done. We were killing a bunch of civilians and not really degrading the Houthis at all. And they told him, “Oh, sir, we just need nine more months.” But he ended it because he saw he was being deceived again. And we're very low on military stockpile, even though we spend three times more than any other country on the planet and more than the next 15 countries combined. 

This was one of the reasons why, although we've been told that Israel and the United States together achieved this massive, glorious war victory, Netanyahu and Trump are war heroes, when Trump called on Netanyahu to be immediately pardoned or have his corruption trial stopped, it was like, “Look, he just, with me, won a historic war.” It's very important for Trump and Israel to insist to people that they won this great war, this historic war, in 12 days. 

The reality is that the Israelis really couldn't fight that war for much longer. You saw with fewer and fewer missiles shot by Iran, not even most sophisticated yet, that more and more of a landing. We don't know the full extent of the damage in Israel because journalists will tell you they were absolutely and aggressively censored by the military from showing any hits on government or military buildings. The only things they were allowed to show were the occasional hits by the Iranians on a civilian building here, a residential building there, to create the false impression that they were targeting and only hitting civilian buildings, but a lot of Israel suffered a lot of damage. President Trump said that himself, that Israel took a huge pounding. They didn't have air defenses any longer. They were running out and the United States couldn't continue to supply them. We were running out of our own missiles that we use to shoot down Iranian missiles. Israel and the United States didn't end to that war at least as much as Iran did because we were so low on our stock files because we're fighting so many wars or funding so many wars. And so the argument of the Pentagon and Elbridge Colby is, “Look, we just don't have these weapons to keep giving to Ukraine. We need them for ourselves. If we keep giving them to Ukraine, we're not going to have any on our own and our priority should be our military and our protection and not Ukraine's.” 

If this were really a difference between Ukraine winning the war, if we give them the weapons as defined by NATO, which was always a pipe dream. However, the definition was expelling every Russian troop from every inch of Ukraine, including Crimea, which the Russians would never ever allow to happen. If it were a difference between Ukraine winning or Ukraine just getting rolled over, then I would say, okay, maybe there's a debate to be had. But the reality is we've been feeding them weapons into the fourth year now. It's four whole years, coming up on four years, three and a half years of not just the United States sending billions and billions of dollars, but also Europe, and Ukraine hasn't been saved. Ukraine has been destroyed. Ukrainians haven't been freed. They've been slaughtered in mass numbers. And that's all that's going to happen if we keep sending weapons there. 

Of course, the Europeans are relying on this fearmongering that Putin is not going to stop with Ukraine. He wants to eat up all of Ukraine. He's demonstrated many times that he's willing to do a peace deal that secures a buffer zone in eastern Ukraine that protects the ethnic Russians who speak Russian and feel they've been aggressively discriminated against by the Kiev government. The people of Crimea and various provinces in the east feel closer to Moscow than they do to Kiev. They identify as Russians and not Ukrainians. So, as long as Russia feels that, A, they can protect those people, and B, create a buffer zone between NATO and the West on the one hand and Russia on the other so it can't go right up to their border, they've always said they're willing to reach a deal. 

And remember, Ukraine and Russia they almost reached a deal at the very beginning of the war that didn't call for the complete sacrifice of Ukrainian sovereignty, but only those kinds of buffer zones or semi-autonomous regions to letting them vote, and that was the deal that Victoria Nuland and Boris Johnson swept in and told Ukraine they can't keep and they wanted this war to be a prolonged war to destroy Russia. So this fearmongering that Putin's going to eat up all of Ukraine and he's going to move to Poland and then he's like Hitler, he's going to sweep through Eastern Europe and then Central Europe, back to Austria and Germany and then is going to go to Paris again, this is idiotic. 

The Russians have had a hard time defeating Ukraine, albeit with, obviously, Ukraine's being aggressively backed by NATO. But even if they weren't, they were willing to do a deal that just provides Russian security. But wars always are raw and fearmongering, and so they've convinced a lot of people if we don't back the Ukrainians, Russia is going to just roll over and take over, annex Ukraine and rebuild the Soviet Union under this kind of view of Greater Russia that Putin supposedly has in mind, the way Israel is actually doing, creating Greater Israel. There's so much evidence that contradicts that, so little evidence that supports it, but at the end of the day, where are these people going to come from who are going to fight on the front lines in Ukraine? There aren't many left. We can drown that country with billions of dollars in weapons and the war is still going to end up the way it's going to end up. You may not like it, it may be sad to you, you may wish it were a different way, but that is just the reality. 

There have been experts saying it very bravely, I mean, Jeffrey Sachs used to go on “Morning Joe” all the time, until he started saying this, and he hasn't been on again. People get booted out of mainstream platforms, they get called all sorts of names, Russian agents, Kremlin propaganda, etc., but who cares? Those people were the ones who were absolutely right, which is why we kept putting them on our show. They were by far the most convincing people. And that is the nature of the war in Ukraine and the U.S. role in it. Even if we wanted to keep supplying the weapons, we simply don't have them because we've been fueling and arming far too many wars: our own, Israel's and Ukraine's. That's what happens. 

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I think this is the third question, and it comes from @BookWench. And this person, I believe, is a wench, self-described, I'm not being insulting, they're a wench. And they really like books. And if you're going to be a wench, I think it’s better to be a well-read wench than some ignorant one. It's a good friend of the show, often asks some really great questions. And here's the one submitted by this wench tonight. 

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She’s talking about our show last night. If you haven't seen it, that's a great summary of it. But we talked about the integration of Big Tech companies like Meta, OpenAI and Palantir increasingly into the media, while at the same time, Trump and big media corporations are reaching all sorts of nefarious agreements about what their coverage should and shouldn't be.

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I'll give you a parallel example to make this point, rather than just addressing this one directly. Oftentimes people focus on what words apply, like what inflammatory words apply, what shocking or extreme political jargon applies, and even if that jargon is important, even if it has fixed meaning, even if deserves to be applied, traditionally, I've tried to avoid arguments over words or labels because so many people feel so strongly about them that even if they might be open to your argument on the substance and the merits, the minute you use that word, a lot of people just shut off. 

That was why it took me a few months to call what Israel was doing in Gaza a genocide, not because I doubted that the term applied but just because there are a lot of people open to hearing the facts about what Israel is doing in Gaza and seeing how horrific and criminal and atrocious it is, but the minute you use the word genocide, they just kind of instantly turn away from it. I often make the assessment, I'd rather have the channel open for communication than use a word that I know that's just going to close that channel. 

A lot of times, though, it does become necessary to use that term, I don't just mean genocide, but a term that can't have that effect because it's indispensable to understanding the situation. And that's how I came to see the word genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing, even more so. You can't really talk about Gaza without talking about that intent. It's not my guess about that; it's based on the statements that the Israelis have made about their war objectives and then their actions that align with it. But in general, I like to avoid those kinds of words. 

Fascism is definitely one of them. I promise fascism is similar to my problem with genocide and there are a lot of other words like this. There are a lot of words that get thrown around that even if they have a clear and fixed meaning, the people throwing them around aren't very capable of defining in a very concrete, specific way what the words mean. Fascism, to me, has almost become colloquial for just, like, Hitler-like or authoritarian or using aggressive racist themes combined with abuse of government power but the word and concept Fascism is a lot more complex than that, and it involves a lot more prongs than that. 

People study fascism for years in universities. There are graduate programs where you study fascism. It's a philosophy, it's an ideology that was developed in a very specific historical context. It ended up shaping the Italian government in the 1930s under Mussolini and then, of course, the Germans; you could argue Franco in Spain also was an expression of it. But I just feel like throwing the word fascism around at Trump or the Republicans, or especially, of all, it means a kind of aggressive authoritarianism. It just doesn't serve any purpose because I think the Biden administration was extremely authoritarian in lots of different ways. I think most administrations of the last 25 years have been. Very few people spent more time vocally, vehemently condemning Bush-Cheney than I did. I wrote books about it, including arguments that they ought to be prosecuted for things they did, spying on Americans without warrants, torturing people and kidnapping them off the streets of Europe. But I don't think I ever called them fascists. Not because someone had studied or done that, would have been offended or argued that it didn't apply, but just because I don't think it helps the conversation any. 

I think one of the worst things the Biden administration did is essentially commandeered the power of Big Tech to control political discourse in the United States, dictating to Big Tech what they ought to suppress and what they are to permit. In doing so, they absolutely warped and suppressed crucial debates about COVID, about Ukraine, about even election integrity that ought to have been aired. One of the things that bothered me about it so much was that you had the government on the one hand and corporate power on the other in the form of Big Tech and the Biden administration was basically annexing the power of Big Tech and corporate power to control free speech. 

I often pointed out that, ironically, the Democrats love to call Donald Trump a fascist, uniting state and corporate power, eliminating the separation between them, where they each have different objectives, sometimes overlapping, sometimes not, but uniting them as one entity working toward exactly the same goal. That was what Hitler did. There was no arms industry that wasn't under the control of the government. There was no private sector not under the control of the government, all working toward a common theme and a common unity. 

That is what's happening here as well as these major corporations like OpenAI, Palantir and Facebook more and more directly and expansively integrate into the military, into the intelligence community, into the government. But there are other factors, other prongs of fascism as well, and people debate it. And so if I were to say that, oh, this is fascism, the Trump government is fascist or the Biden administration is fascist, it might be satisfying to people who want to hear that and who believe that. But for a lot of people, they would just turn that off as Fox junk in the case of Biden or MSNBC junk in the case of Trump, and oftentimes that is what it is, just junk. It's people spewing it without having any idea what those terms mean, just to get maximum emotional catharsis or provoke emotional reactions. 

I would much rather do what we did last night, which is spend 45 or 50 minutes, maybe an hour, however much we spent, showing people exactly what's happening, showing this integration between corporate and state power for surveillance purposes, for military purposes, for intelligence gathering. Talk about the dangers of it in a way that I hope people are open-minded, because we're showing them the evidence. The minute you start using terms that they're kind of inherently going to repel or just recoil from, I feel like I can call it fascism and congratulate myself, but I don't feel like it does much good. I feel like actually does the reverse. If these terms were very clearly agreed to specific meanings that everyone understood, I wouldn't have a problem with using them when they applied, but since they don't at all, I think these words are obfuscated. 

But I did point out last night, and I will say again, that integrating corporate and state power is a hallmark of fascism and whether all the other hallmarks of fascism are present, it's extremely dangerous for the reasons we delved into extensively last night if you want to understand more how we think about that and what we said you can, if you haven't already, check out last night's show

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All right, next question @KKtowas, who says this:

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I don't want to be too cavalier about paraphrasing this. The question did do a good job of describing it. I'd rather show the actual words. If you haven't heard it, it's really worth watching. I definitely understand why it provoked this question. 

So, let me focus on the part that I do actually feel comfortable paraphrasing, which is Ross Douthat did ask Peter Thiel, “Do you favor the continuation of the human race? Is this something that you actually think is a good thing?” 

Elon Musk has been asked this before. Part of what Elon Musk wants to do is make sure humanity is multiplanetary, starting with life on Mars. A lot of people think, ‘Oh, you must think that's because humanity on Earth is doomed; otherwise, why is it so important to you to make humanity multiplanetary?’ There are other reasons why you might, but that's a suspicion, and not just to make it multiplanetary because the Earth is doomed, but also to transform what it means to be human. 

This kind of philosophy has been popular among these more extreme Silicon Valley types of Transhumanism, something that transcends humanity or fundamentally transforms it. Typically, I think merging humanity with technology or with a machine for a superior being, it's definitely how a lot of them think of artificial intelligence. I, one time, got a root canal, which I hate as much as anybody – I think I hate it more, but probably everyone hates it equally – but one of the only good things about it is that it lasts for two hours. I have the time to sit and listen to podcasts that ordinarily I wouldn't have time to listen to, or the inclination, just because I have to have my brain distracted. I can't, even if my mouth is totally numb and I don't feel it. I don't like hearing what the dentist is doing. I don't want to think about what tools he's using and why. There's almost no job I'd rather have least than being a dentist and just constantly being in someone's mouth every day looking at their teeth. But whatever. So, I try to distract myself and one of the ways I did so is I listening to Mark Zuckerberg's appearance on Joe Rogan. He was talking at length about his vision that soon we're going to take all these devices, virtual reality devices and AI devices, and they're no longer going to be exterior instruments that we wear, like Googles on our head or phones or earpieces or things in our phone. It's going to be part of our anatomy. He was talking about drilling into brains in order to have this technology part of the human brain, and at first he said the first use is going to medical, somebody has a neurological injury or some other serious neurological problem, this machine will help them with that functionality. But critically, he was talking as well about an ultimate merger between technology and human beings, which in one way may not change the nature of human beings in the beginning. It's just kind of another instrument. You can imagine this earpiece. Say you wear an earpiece of the kind people commonly use now to listen to things on a computer, connected by Bluetooth to their phones. Does it really change humanity if, instead of just having this come in and out, it's just now implanted in our ears? Does it change humanity? Well, when you start talking about the brain and changing how our brains think and produce thought, or having AI be the future of what a human being should be, but in a spiritual form, that's clearly transhumanistic. That's transforming what a human being fundamentally is. 

There are all kinds of questions that come with that. If you believe in a soul, does this have a soul? And the way Mark Zuckerberg was so cavalier in talking about it, I found very creepy. 

Let me just say one thing. I think the question referenced that Peter Thiel stuttered when he answered and kind of had big pauses. Peter Thiel always does that. The reason is – and he's talked about this before, he's autistic – and that means you don't have the same capacity for social interaction. 

One of the things he said that I found super interesting was what he thinks the benefit of being autistic, not severely autistic, where you aren't verbal, can't interact with people at all, but somewhere on the spectrum of where he places himself. When you don't have autism and you're very clued into social cues – and we are social and political animals, we do interact as groups, we are not solitary beings – that if you're so aware of social cues and you're constantly receiving what social cues are, in a way it's making you more conformist, kind of morphing you into society, you understand what society expects of you, you understand what the society thinks, you understand what you're supposed to say in most situations. And he was saying that that can really make you conformist. It can kind of just make you part of this blob. Whereas he sees his autism as almost a gift because feeling detached, excluded, or isolated from majoritarian societal sentiments, ethos and mores forces you to see things differently, to look at things differently. And then that, of course, is the kind of thing that can lead to innovation and invention. Steve Jobs was not autistic, but he actually has said in interviews, people don't talk about this, but it's so true, that had he not taken LSD and had experience with other hallucinogens, he never would have invented the iPad or various Apple products, that it was that kind of transcendent thought that enabled him to have this vision that he otherwise wouldn't have had. On some level, mind-altering drugs can be analogized to autism and so, yes, Peter Thiel stutters; he stumbles. Oftentimes, it seems like he's sweating or having difficulty answering the question, but in reality, it's autism and the way he speaks. But it does affect how people perceive him. 

Let me show you this clip that the question asked, because I think it's really worth hearing him in his own words. 

Video. Ross Douthat, Peter Thiel, TikTok.

Let me say a couple of things about this. People who think about changes in the future are often looked at as strange and weird because generally, the future is something we can't really imagine. 

I remember when I was young, I'm still young, but I remember when I was younger, when I was a child, and I used to go visit my grandparents. My grandfather was born in 1904. My grandmother was born in 1910. I spent a lot of time over there when I was younger and I constantly thought about how bizarre it was that they were born into a world that didn't have airplanes, didn't have radio, didn't have television, didn't really have phones and then during their lifetime, like all this technology that previously had been considered unthinkable – how is something going to fly in the air over the Earth? How are people going to talk to each other using weird connective machines? Or television that started off black and white and then became color, or film that started silent and then became with audio. All these things were unthinkable at the beginning and I kept thinking how strange to be born into a world where this unthinkable technology didn't exist, and then suddenly it arrives, and it just changes your world. All those technologies, obviously, had a major effect on the world. Then I had my own experience. I was born in 1967. I was 24, 25 when the internet started really being something that I used in my life, and, obviously, that's a major transformative innovation. If you had thought about the internet before it happened, it would seem inconceivable; people who describe the future in ways that seem inconceivable always come off as very strange and weird. So, I think we ought to acknowledge that. 

But I want to say two things on the other side, as kind of big caveats. One is the idea of a billionaire; until you really interact with billionaires, it's hard to explain what they're like, and I've had pretty close interactions with many of them. Obviously, I founded a media company with one of them, Pierre Omidyar, who I think is worth like $12 billion or whatever. A lot of other people in Silicon Valley whom – I've gotten to know some – ‘being rich’ doesn't describe that, like the amount of wealth that you have, like when you're a billionaire, you don't think of yourself as just rich, you start thinking about what you can do to change the world, change the government, change countries, change culture. It's so much power; it's so much money. 

With power and money comes, in almost every case, being surrounded by sycophants: people constantly flattering you, saying yes to everything that you think, say and want, because power means you can do so many things for people that benefit their lives and if they know that you have that, they're going to want to flatter you so that there's a chance you're going to give those things to them. Obviously, it makes people in that situation so detached from reality and so enamored of themselves just because all their influences tell them that they are brilliant, and that they're a genius and that they see things people don't see. 

Sometimes, that may be true, there are probably billionaires, I guess I know a couple, who I would consider extremely smart, but the majority of them, including ones I've worked with, I can tell you, I'm not going to say they're dumb. They're mediocre. Sometimes they have like an idiot savant skill that turned into a company that just exploded at the right time. Everyone's success has partly some luck. You have to be in the right place at the right time and a lot of these people who walk around thinking they're brilliant and have the power with their billions of dollars to bring those visions to fruition and to convince people that they should, are not even remotely close to as smart as they think. 

So, when they start getting these visions and everyone around them tells them how brilliant they are and everything about their lives is reinforcing their own brilliance, I do think that can be a very twisted and dangerous dynamic. Then there is this very specific billionaire culture, especially the ones that came out of Silicon Valley, that believes that they are the kind of people society ought to progress and evolve and transform into, and that the society just doesn't facilitate that. The society punishes success; it impedes a transformative kind of Übermensch, to use a Nietzschean expression. And they have ideas like they want to just start new societies, they want to buy a country, or buy so much land that it can become its own country and they just create a society from scratch where they're the overlords and they create rules. Obviously it then extends to like, maybe we shouldn't even do it on Earth, let's start our own society on Mars or wherever and it becomes this very utopian and dystopian vision driven by a tiny number of people who have no real pushback or tension between the things that come out of their mouths into their from their brains into their mouths and then try they can try and make reality and have the power to make reality. But a lot of that is, I think very alarming; we ought to be very, very, very skeptical of that, even in the cases where it might be promising. 

A lot of this just depends on what you think. If you're a complete nihilist and atheist, and you just believe everything is just kind of a nihilistic evolution, no purpose, no spirit, no soul, we just keep evolving over millions of years, and human beings are just where we are now, it’s just one stop along the way, and our next destination is something totally different, it probably wouldn't bother you. But if you have a kind of idea of something essentialist about being human that turning us into beings that exist in an AI vat and eliminating us, every part of us, except our intellect, may not be an advancement, that may be a destruction of humanity while maintaining the facade of it, this is the kind of stuff that I think requires a great deal of introspection, a great deal of thought, a great debate involving the whole society. 

But because billionaires have this ability to just push things along with no constraints, AI is just exploding really with no safeguards. I mean, there are some superficial safeguards, like if you use ChatGPT or the commercial ones, they don't let you do certain things that could easily be done, but you can imagine how it's actually being developed. And the people who don't want those safeguards to exist are using AI without those safeguards. None of this is being understood. None of it is being analyzed or studied. 

I'm not an alarmist at all about technology, even including AI. But I think it's more this kind of narcissism and this self-adoration that naturally develops in billionaires that gives them far too much confidence in their own ability to push humanity into directions that they think it should go and really don't need much debate to do it because their brains are sufficiently advanced to make those decisions and see those things on their own and the proof is that they became billionaires. That's how the reasoning works. That, I think, is the most dangerous dynamic rather than the specific things. 

And yeah, when Peter Thiel starts saying, “I'm not sure humanity should continue, okay, I'll say yes, just because you obviously think it's extremely creepy if I don't, but I'm going to add that maybe we should exist in some other form,” I hope people are disturbed by that. I'm not saying necessarily opposed to it, but I hope they're disturbed by it, in a way that they kind of demand some time and reflection in order to consider. 


 

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