Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Culture • Writing
House Investigates Fauci’s Covid Origins Cover-Up. Plus: Russell Brand's Expulsion from the Left
Video Transcript: System Update #51
March 10, 2023
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Some personal issues required us to take the last couple of days off. We are, as always, appreciative of your indulgence. We're excited to be back tonight for what we think is a great show and we begin with an extraordinary hearing that was held today on Capitol Hill, conducted by the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic that provided all new and highly compelling evidence that Dr. Anthony Fauci deliberately manipulated the scientific investigation into – and the public debate regarding – the origins of the COVID pandemic. 

Specifically: Fauci was well aware that ample evidence existed to support the belief that COVID came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and yet he secretly worked – using the immense power he wields over budgets and scientists – to have the lab leak theory declared to be a crazy, debunked conspiracy theory, and instead claimed a scientific certainty that he knew was lacking for the view that COVID evolved naturally, meaning that it had a zoonotic origin by species leaping from non-human animals into humanity. We will show you some of the most important exchanges from today's hearing and explore the answers we now have and the ones we still need to get. 

Plus, a new article in the liberal-left British New Statesman officially expelled from the left my colleague here on Rumble, Russell Brand. The article is entitled “We have lost Russell Brand” and that article has no importance unto itself. Nobody, least of all Russell, cares if some neoliberal magazine in London considers him part of the left or not, but in arguing that he has now joined the heterodox part of the far-right –having been taken in, it argues, by the likes of Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson and myself – this article really does vividly reveal how these labels are now wielded far more as tools of coercion, conformity-enforcement and punishment, then as illuminating signifiers of substantive belief. And what it really reveals is how, in mainstream circles, the terms “left” and “right” have become so inverted as to be meaningless, largely because the most meaningful dichotomy is no longer archaic dichotomies of “Democrat versus Republican” or even “left versus right”, but rather pro or anti-establishment or, relatedly, pro or anti-authoritarianism. Since few articles make as manifestly clear how these terms are now wielded, we'll examine this one as a means of shedding light on – more broadly – how radically our discourse has changed. 

For now, welcome to a new episode of System Update, starting right now. 

 

Congressional hearings on the origins of COVID

 

There was a newly created committee as part of the new Republican majority called the House Subcommittee on the COVID Pandemic. Today it held its first hearing, designed to examine what is – in my view and I think it's hard to dispute at this point – one of the most significant controversies in science and journalism in this generation, namely the obviously manipulated discourse, intentionally manipulated discourse, surrounding one of our generation's most important questions, namely, how did the COVID pandemic begin? From where did the virus, the novel coronavirus, originate? 

In order to be able to have the key context for this hearing, it's important to quickly review some of the key events that preceded not just the hearing but the most recent revelations that give real context and real fuel to this debate. Just last week, we covered in-depth, in an episode devoted to some new findings, that key parts of the U.S. government – including some of its most elite scientists and its teams – are now convinced not just that the lab leak is viable but, according to at least two key agencies – the Department of Energy and the FBI – their belief now is that the lab leak is the most likely explanation for how the COVID virus began, that it emanated or leaked intentionally or otherwise, from the Wuhan Institute of Virology

Most of these agencies are emphasizing their belief that it was unintentional, as a leak, not something that was deliberately weaponized. But they haven't really strongly opined on that as much as they have on their view, whether with low confidence or mid-level confidence, that the much more likely explanation for how COVID originated is not that it was naturally occurring in science, or that it had a zoonotic origin – that it leaked from bats or pangolins to humans. But instead, according to these key and elite scientific teams inside the U.S. government – inside the U.S. Security State – they have now concluded that the lab leak theory is the most likely explanation. 

What is so important about this news is not that it closes the debate forever – there are still agencies in the U.S. government that believe it's more likely that the virus originated naturally. The CIA continues to maintain a posture of neutrality – you know, the CIA is always eager to latch on to a theory only once they're certain it's absolutely true. That's how much integrity that agency has. 

But the fact that the Department of Energy and the FBI – and specifically this key elite team of scientists within the Department of Energy tasked with overseeing the U.S. government's own biological research labs – have concluded the lab leak theory is the most viable is so important because what it reveals is that the debate that Dr. Fauci caused to be closed, almost immediately at the beginning of the COVID pandemic, is, in fact, very open and always has been open. Specifically, with regard to the lab leak theory, that bout in secret eagerly engineered to have declared to be some crazy, deranged conspiracy theory that was so debunked, according to him and the team of scientists he assembled, that Big Tech did not even allow you to express the view that you thought COVID came from the lab, upon pain of being banned or having your post removed. That is how strong was the consensus that Fauci engineered and imposed that the U.S. government knew for sure from the start of that pandemic where COVID came from and what they said they knew for sure was that it came from a species leaping naturally occurring, zoonotic origin, and not from a lab leak. 

All along, what we know for sure – and this is the evidence we reviewed in depth last week, so we're just going to show you the highlights – from the very beginning, the question obviously, that people wanted to ask, especially leading virologists who have studied viruses like this their whole life, was where did this come from? Where did this novel coronavirus come from? And what was so remarkable about the speed with which the U.S. government declared itself certain was that, first of all, they called it a novel coronavirus because it was unlike anything science had seen before. It was novel, new and different. It needed to be studied. And so, the idea that the U.S. government was instantly able with certainty to identify where it came from in and of itself was just inherently suspect. And yet they were adamant that they were able to determine the cause right away before they knew how to test for it, before they knew how to treat it, before they knew almost anything about it, they declared that everything was off limits as a possible explanation for its origin, except the theory that Fauci claimed – baselessly – they had proven or were certain of, namely that it came from natural evolution. What made that additionally suspect is the fact that the Chinese government also declared very early on, in fact, late in 2019, rather, heading into 2020, that the debate over Covid's origin was so clear and so conclusive that no evidence needed to be examined. They refused to allow any evidence to be examined either with regard to the Wuhan Institute of Virology – to determine whether it might have led from there – or to study the data they had collected as ground zero for this pandemic. And so even if Dr. Fauci had managed to assemble a team of scientists so brilliant that they were capable of instantly concluding with so much certainty to close the debate where COVID's origins were, the fact that the Chinese had made it impossible for them to even access the data that you would need to even get started, made the idea that they had been able to prove the origins of COVID additionally suspect. And yet that's exactly what they did. They announced in various ways in a letter in Lancet, followed by an article in Nature, followed by all kinds of other press conferences and assertions they definitively declared, led by Dr. Fauci, that they had proven the origins of COVID and knew that it was natural and that anyone even questioning the possibility of a lab leak was a deranged conspiracy theorist who deserved to be excluded and shamed from decent society. And only months later did we learn that not only was there no basis for that declaration – that of course the corporate media repeated over and over, like the obedient servants to authority that they always are – not only was there no basis for it, from the beginning, Fauci knew that the most prestigious and most well-regarded virologist and other scientists told him the exact opposite, that they strongly believed, based on the available data, that it could not have been naturally occurring, but instead almost certainly came from the Wuhan lab, or at least was highly likely that it came from a leak. 

Here we can look at just one of these emails, which is from Kristian Andersen. He's a scientist who, despite having sent this letter, ended up subsequently affirming Fauci's view that it had natural origins, he then signed the Nature paper and then, after that, received a significant grant – that Fauci controlled. He also signed the Lancet letter. And in this email, dated January 31, 2020, so, very close to the beginning of the pandemic, he wrote to Fauci and said, “The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered”. Andersen went on to say that, after discussion, he and several other prominent virologists, “found the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory”. 

So, at the very least, yes, one of the leading scientists on questions of the origin of viruses told Fauci, when you look closely, it's inconsistent with the view of a natural origin and far more likely to be from a lab. There were other similar emails Fauci was getting at that time as well as phone calls, and as a result, he then arranged a conference call, in an email sent the following day, February 1st, that he got that email from Kristian Andersen – he was addressing it to Jeremy Farrar and he CC’ed Kristian Andersen, in which he essentially said that he wanted there to be a call. He had gotten on a call with several other virologists to discuss his concerns that the virus was not the result of natural evolutionary biology, but instead the result of human input, namely, gain-of-function engineering, that raised the possibility of a lab leak origin – meaning that Fauci knew he had funded, indirectly, through Peter Daszak and EcoHealth Alliance, research at this exact lab, designed to manipulate the virus to make it more vulnerable for human transmission – called gain-of-function research, which is designed to make a virus more dangerous in a lab. 

He obviously did not want the public to believe that that's where it came from. Would you want the public to believe that this pandemic that was killing huge numbers of people and shutting down the world economy and terrorizing everybody came from a lab that you were funding research into? And not just funding research into, but funding research designed to make that very virus more easily contractable and transmissible for humans? If I were somebody who had funded research like that or had approved it or overseen it, I also would want the world to think that that was a deranged conspiracy theory that no one with any credentials would possibly believe, that only crazy conspiracy theorists would believe that. I would definitely want the world to believe that the U.S. government had proven they had nothing to do with that lab, that it just came through bad luck, through zoonotic processes that were naturally developing. So, what Fauci was saying here is essential that we want to make sure that we get these scientists together and instead of having this ugly, unpleasant, inconvenient debate, instead, we get a consensus where everybody gets on board – all these scientists who depend on the billions of dollars of funding that I control – with my view, that serves my interests, that this virus that was threatening the entire world and all of humanity, or at least people believed at the time, had nothing to do with the research I funded, but instead just came from nature. 

After he did that, the notes that he ended up producing from this February 1 conference call revealed that Bob Garry, who is Dr. Robert Garry, one of the leading virologists in the country, said on this call, 

“I really can't think of a plausible natural scenario where you get from the bat virus or one very similar to it to nCoV […] I just can't figure out how that gets accomplished in nature.”

So, again, here you have a leading virologist, just like Kristian Andersen, telling Fauci what he did not want to hear, namely that not only does he considered the debate open, he considers it extremely unlikely, in fact, not just impossible but unthinkable, that this virus could have occurred naturally. He again was somebody who ended up jumping on the consensus. 

Here in this next email. We see an email from Jeremy Farrar to Francis Collins, who is the head of NIH, CC’ing Dr. Fauci. And you can see they're very worried here about what's going on. This, in particular, their concerns, this is February 4 now, about the consensus they're trying to engineer. And it reads, “Being very careful in the morning wording. “Engineered” probably not. Remains very real possibility of accidental lab passage in animals to give glycans”.  And, referring to the virologist Eddie Holmes, who was a coauthor of the natural paper: “Eddie would be 60:40 lab side. I remain 50:50”. 

So, again, everything Fauci is hearing for days now is telling him that what he’s trying to convince the world of – that the debate is closed, that all the evidence proves that it was naturally occurring – is the opposite of what all of the leading scientists with whom he's speaking are telling him, namely that the debate is wide open and that apparently, from what's been produced here, at least a good number – if not a majority – believe that the far more likely explanation is that it came from the Wuhan lab. And yet, Dr. Fauci, unsurprisingly – given the power that he wields as the person who controls the gigantic budget of scientific research, without which almost no scientist or researcher can possibly find career advancement – was able to use that leverage to at least convene a large group of scientists who were willing to announce very early on in the pandemic before there was any real evidence available, let alone proof demonstrated, that they agreed with what Dr. Fauci wanted the world to believe, namely that the lab leak was some crackpot theory, and the only viable one was that it naturally occurred through nature. 

Here, as you know, is this now notorious Lancet letter from February 19 – so just two weeks after Fauci was hearing from all these experts that they believed lab leak was the more likely explanation – that incredibly said that it's essentially immoral – immoral – to assert that it might have come from a lab, that this is an attack on one's fellow colleagues in science, in China, that it's anti-Asian to even suggest this and that, instead, the debate is closed and all rational people know that the only way COVID could have originated was naturally. One of the key signers on that, in fact, the person who engineered this letter, as we now know, was Peter Daszak, who, although undisclosed in this Lancet letter, was somebody who was the head of an entity, EcoHealth Alliance, that got money from Fauci and provided that funding to the scientists in the Wuhan lab to do this exact research. He had an extraordinary financial conflict of interest, a reputational conflict of interest, in convincing the world that this occurred naturally, not through a lab leak. And they used this Lancet letter to accomplish exactly that without revealing any of those conflicts of interest that I just referenced. And this was what essentially was used to close the debate. 

 

The rapid, open and transparent sharing of data on this outbreak is now being threatened by rumors and misinformation around its origins. We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin (The Lancet. Feb. 19, 2020). 

 

Two weeks after Fauci was hearing from these leading scientists that they believe it was a lab leak, he got all these scientists on board with this announcement that anybody who does not accept the natural origin is a conspiracy theorist who deserves to be strongly condemned. And it went on: 

 

Scientists from multiple countries have published and analyzed genomes of the causative agent, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV2), and they overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife as have so many other emerging pathogens. Conspiracy theories do nothing but create fear, rumors and prejudice that jeopardize our global collaboration in the fight against this virus. We support the call from the Director-General of WHO to promote scientific evidence and unity over misinformation and conjecture (The Lancet. Feb. 19, 2020).  

 

That is exactly what they wanted it, and what they got: it was unity and the claim that anyone questioning their consensus, their artificially hastily engineered consensus, was nothing but somebody who is spreading misinformation and threatening their scientists, and scientific colleagues in China. 

They knew very quickly that Peter Daszak involvement in this letter was going to jeopardize its credibility. So, they then arranged for a new article in Nature Magazine, in March, called “The Proximal Origins of SARS-CoV-2” that similarly asserted that it was essentially proven that it had natural origins. And there you see the names of two of the scientists, Kristian Andersen and Robert F. Garry, who, just a month earlier, in private, were telling Fauci that they strongly believed it came from the lab. Having analyzed it, it's highly improbable, they said, that it occurred naturally. And that at least a couple of the signatories of this article ended up receiving funding from Dr. Fauci. No one can prove that the funding was a quid pro quo, that it came as a result of their willingness to radically change their view. Just a month earlier, you had Robert Garry saying he's 60:40 lab leak and his colleague is 50:50; Kristian Andersen, saying he can't even imagine how it could have occurred naturally. Suddenly they changed their mind. After that, they get gigantic grants from Fauci – that we know for sure. The quid pro quo in the motive is something that is very difficult to prove and never will be proven with certainty. But what it shows for sure is the power Fauci has. If you get on his good side, if you say what he needed you to say, the money flows. Then Nature Magazine was very similar to what the Lancet letter said. It said,

Here we review what can be deduced from about the origin of SARS-CoV-2, from comparative analysis of genomic data. We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analysis clearly shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposely manipulated virus (Nature Magazine. March 17, 2020). 

 

Amazing how rapidly they transformed. 

It took a year and a half basically for Lancet to go back and essentially retract that shameful letter that it published early on. This time it was headlined “Science, not speculation, is essential to determine how SARS-CoV-2 reached humans”. It began heavily backtracking on the certainty it purported to have at the beginning of the pandemic, that it came from natural evolution. And here you see it, in a subsequent publication which they called addendum: they disclosed competing interest in the origins of SARS-CoV-2 by specifically noting the interest that Peter Daszak had in ensuring that the public believed all of this. 

 

Again, this worked so well – the closing off of the possibility of a lab leak – that Big Tech considered it such blatant disinformation, that they banned anybody who wanted to even suggest that they believed it was true. It was only once the Biden administration announced that they no longer had confidence in these claims about COVID's origin, that they, too, were now questioning whether it came from a lab. And when investigated, only then did Big Tech, led by Facebook, reverse its policy and say, now that the government has given us permission, we're going to start allowing the question of whether it was man-made to be openly debated on the Internet. 

Here you see the article in Politico announcing this change in May 2021. So, a year and three or four months into the pandemic, finally, the debate is declared free to headline “Facebook No Longer Treating Man-Made COVID as a Crackpot Idea. Facebook's policy tweak arrives as support surges in Washington for a fuller investigation into the origins of COVID-19.”

Remember, the media and the government spent a year and three months calling any of you that even entertained the possibility that it came from that Wuhan lab, a deranged conspiracy theorist who should not be allowed to be heard on the Internet, only to then admit – a year and three months later – that not only is the debate not closed, that that same theory they declared off limits, as disinformation, as something deranged, conspiracy theories spread, was in fact a very viable theory that required investigation. As a result, 

 

Facebook will no longer take down posts claiming that COVID-19 was man-made or manufactured, a company spokesman told Politico on Wednesday, a move that acknowledges the renewed debate about the virus' origins. 

 

A narrative in flux: Facebook's policy tweak arrives as support surges in Washington for a fuller investigation into the origins of COVID-19 after The Wall Street Journal reported that three scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized in late 2019 with symptoms consistent with the virus. The findings have reinvigorated the debate about the so-called Wuhan lab leak theory, once dismissed as a fringe conspiracy theory (Politico. May 26, 2021). 

 

Do you notice how often that happens -  the theories that the government and the media want you to disbelieve get labeled disinformation and deranged conspiracy theories and they ban you from even debating it on the Internet only then later admit that they were wrong, that they were mistaken, that what they thought was a deranged conspiracy theory, in fact, is now looking increasingly likely? That was not a change at all. Just like the media knew in October 2020 that the material on the Biden laptop was authentic and not “Russian disinformation,” that's not something they discovered later on. It was clear from the beginning .We just showed the emails that these scientists disbelieved that it occurred naturally. There was no evidence of animals having been infected by it. What they had instead was Chinese scientists in that lab, having been infected before the pandemic was even known. Pretty strong evidence that it originated in that lab. As a result, Politico concludes:

 

Shifting definitions on social media: Facebook announced in February it had expanded the list of misleading health claims that it would remove from its platforms to include those asserting that “COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured'”. The tech giant has updated its policies against false and misleading coronavirus information, including its running list of debunked claims, over the course of the pandemic in consultation with global health officials. But a Facebook spokesperson said Wednesday that the origin language had been stricken from that list due to the renewed debate about the virus's roots. 

 

In light of ongoing investigations into the origin of COVID-19 and in consultation with public health experts, we will no longer remove the claim that COVID-19 is man-made from our apps”, the spokesman said in an emailed statement. “We're continuing to work with health experts to keep pace with the evolving nature of the pandemic and regularly update our policies as new facts and trends emerge” (Politico. May 26, 2021). 

 

Consider how nefarious that is. The entire purpose of the Internet, the reason why it had promise and excited people was that it was going to remove the stranglehold of information that governments and large media corporations exerted for decades. If they wanted to make you believe something, they would assert it is true – like they did with the claim that COVID was naturally occurring – and there was no way to challenge that because you didn't own a printing press, you didn't own a studio and there was no way for you to widely disseminate views that deviated from theirs. It was an incredible power they wielded. You could go out onto this corner and stand on a soapbox and challenge it that way, and 20 people would hear you and assume you were crazy because they had legitimacy and people believed in them and they had a stranglehold, a monopoly on the flow of information. The only technology that came along that threatened it is the Internet. That's what allowed people for the first time to be heard questioning these narratives and challenging the veracity of these assertions coming from institutions of authority. It was a real threat – and is a real threat – to their ability to maintain a monopoly on the flow of information. That is exactly why it became so important to them to censor the Internet because only by censoring the Internet through Big Tech platforms could they maintain the control, a monopoly that they had for decades in the flow of information. Only by censoring the Internet could they quash the one real challenge to their information hegemony. And that's why it's so important, conversely, to fight for and defend a free Internet – free of censorship – because that's the only way we can viably challenge the disinformation they constantly disseminate while accusing everyone else of being guilty of it. 

And here you see Facebook essentially saying, ‘before when the government told us that the lab leak theory was crazy, we obeyed them and we banned it. Only now that the government itself admits that it's viable, are we going to allow it”. So, you see a complete alignment, as always, in what Big Tech allows and what the government wants you to think. So, it was only once Joe Biden and the Biden administration itself started questioning this did Facebook allow you to question it as well. 

The key blow to all of this, the thing that finally blew this all out into the open, was this February 26, 2023, report in The Wall Street Journal that reported that very significant components of the U.S. government, in particular the Department of Energy and the FBI, have now concluded that the lab leak theory not only is viable but is the more likely one. We went over this article – I'm sure you've seen it and heard it, but this is an extraordinary development, given that it is now the government itself that says that the theory they succeeded in marginalizing and banning at Dr. Fauci's insistence is in fact not debunked at all but, according to key scientists, the most likely explanation. 

So, that was the perfect setting for this new committee to hold its first hearing, which they did today. They called a group of four experts, including the former head of the CDC, as well as Nicholas Wade, the science editor of Science Magazine in The New York Times, before them – I assume, at some point, they're going to demand that Dr. Fauci appear or subpoena him, if he refuses, in order to explore exactly this question: How did this happen? How is it possible that the U.S. government succeeded in roping in a bunch of scientists who knew better into signing on to a letter asserting a scientific certainty they clearly lacked and declaring the theory that they themselves believed to be off limits from the discussion as a crazy conspiracy theory, and then got rewarded for that in the form of large grants from the very person who demanded that consensus be created. This is a gigantic scandal – that the government and the media declared off limits a theory that looks to be extremely viable, if not the most likely, and claimed the debate was closed and had been proven when in fact it was a lie all along, not on an unimportant and trivial question, but on one of the central questions of the most important political event of this generation, which is the COVID pandemic. So, let's look at a few of the key exchanges from today's hearing, because they're really quite remarkable – and what they reveal. So, let's bring up the first one. This is the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, Congressman James Comer. This is a subcommittee of his oversight committee. Let's listen to this exchange here.

 

(Video 00:33:48)

Rep. James Comer: […]  Themes of the pandemic have been scientists’ use of the media to downplay the lab leak theory. Mr. Wade, in your career, you worked at Nature Magazine, Science Magazine and The New York Times. Would you agree that the scientific establishment used the media to downplay the lab leak theory? Like. 

 

Nicholas Wade:  That's a complicated issue, Mr. Comer. I think the media was used. It was used in this particular campaign to establish the natural origin theory. The scientific community is very afraid to speak up on political issues. And I think the reason is that government grants are handed out through this system of peer-to-peer review committees. So, you don't want any single scientist on your peer review committee to vote against you, therefore – because you won't get your lead so competitively. So, therefore, scientists are very reluctant to get to say anything that is politically divisive or might turn others on his off against them. 

 

That's a pretty damning admission, even though he was very reluctant to make it. He started out by saying it was a complicated question, but then answered in a way that suggests that it was anything but by saying, yes, the media was in fact, used. Like the little instrument, they are to disseminate a false consensus. If you worked at one of these media outlets that did that if you know that you are part of the effort to deceive the world and were used in this way, wouldn't you be ashamed and angry and betrayed? Do you think any of these people are going to go on to television or into their columns and talk about how they were used and how angry they are about it? Of course not. They see this as their job to disseminate what they're told. But it's also an incredible indictment of the integrity of the scientific establishment that people are afraid to dissent, even if they don't believe the consensus, because all of the money is so centralized that you'll be punished by withholding grants or by being denied tenure or other advancements if you question the consensus at all. That's an incredibly disturbing revelation about how science works, how the help policy expertise functions in this country, and that all the incentives are built in to ensure obedience to the consensus and to disincentivize dissent, especially on the questions that are most important. In other words, he just explained, without really wanting to, why these leading virologists, in private, told Fauci that they found it almost inconceivable that there was a natural origin to this pandemic, only then sign on to that very same theory that they proclaimed unthinkable and then was rewarded with grant money that Fauci controlled. Let’s listen to the rest. 

 

(Video 00:36:57)


Nicholas Wade:  This means that they cannot be relied upon in the way that I think we would like them to, to be independent and forthright and call it as they see it. 

 

Rep. James Comer: Well, we saw this first with the “Proximal Origin” paper that said, “Our analysis clearly showed that COVID-19 is not a laboratory construct or a purposely manipulated virus”. This was first published on February 17, 2020. Each witness, over a simple question, yes or no: Was there science available to make such an unequivocal statement against the possibility of a lab leak that early on in February of 2020? 

 

He's talking there about the Lancet article, as well as the Nature article, from February and March. The “Proximal origins of the pandemic” was the Nature article. The February article was Lancet. He's asking, “Is it conceivable that we had enough evidence early on to make these definitive judgments, as those two papers purported to do?

 

(Video 00:38:01)

Rep. James Comer: February 2020? 

 

Dr. Jamie Metzl, Ph.D. Senior Fellow The Atlantic Council: Absolutely no. 

 

Mr. Nicholas Wade:  I know it was not. 

 

Paul G. Auwaerter, MD, MBA (Minority Witness): I don't have sufficient frame of reference to give an answer. 

 

Dr. Robert Redfield, Former CDC Director: No. 

 

Again, I just need to emphasize how significant it is, not allowing this to be lost in kind of the casual nature of the tone that was just used there. Those papers that I showed you were the ones that formed the basis for the discourse around the world for the first year to year and a half of the pandemic. You're not allowed to even mention the lab leak, because scientists have said in the Lancet letter and in the Nature journal, in February and March, that all of these scientists had established a consensus that the data proved that it occurred naturally and that, under no circumstances, could ever come from a lab. And these experts were asked, did we have anything close to sufficient evidence to form those judgments scientifically. And three out of the four said absolutely not. And one said, I'm not sure. That is a gigantic fraud, a scientific fraud perpetrated on the public, that because Fauci was privately urging and demanding that they do so, pressuring them in all ways, they signed on to a letter that purported to have certainty without any of the available evidence that would be needed to assert that in their hands. It is really remarkable the more you think about what happened here. 

 

(Video 00:39:42)

Rep. James Comer: Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance orchestrated a letter in The Lancet, a prestigious journal, on February 19, 2020, that said, quote, “We strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin”, end quote. Each witness, yes or no, is the possibility COVID-19 leaked from a lab a conspiracy theory? 

 

Dr. Jamie Metzl, Ph.D. Senior Fellow The Atlantic Council: Absolutely not. 

 

Mr. Nicholas Wade:  No. I would say. 

 

Paul G. Auwaerter, MD, MBA (Minority Witness): No, but also it has been approached as such. 

 

Dr. Robert Redfield, Former CDC Director: No. 

 

I mean, someone should have to pay for this, shouldn't they? I mean, this is what we were told over and over: that it is a deranged conspiracy theory to suggest that the coronavirus may have leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. And then, all the adjacent questions that naturally emerge from that, such as whether that took place because of the manipulation of the virus to make it more dangerous to humans, to make it more susceptible to become a pandemic; whether the United States government paid for that research or whether Dr. Fauci, who in some way contributed funds directly or indirectly to the research of that sort, all while vehemently denying under oath for months that he ever funded gain-of-function research – how it is that Peter Daszak, who absolutely funded that kind of research, or at least research into coronaviruses in this very lab, was able to engineer this incredibly influential letter in Lancet without any disclosure of his overwhelming investment, personal conflict, and having the public believe this? So, to watch these witnesses out in the open and these are not just randomly chosen witnesses, these are the leaders in virology, the CDC, in science journalism, all affirming these extraordinary revelations, it's like a gigantic earthquake into the laps of the scientific establishment and the corporate media that endorsed what they were doing, deceiving the world for a very long time, ruining people's reputations and foreclosing any inquiry into where this pandemic came from. 

Now, let's look at the next exchange from this hearing. It's led by Congressman Jim Jordan, a person of whom I'm not always a fan, especially when it comes to his protection of Google and Facebook when it comes to antitrust legislation, but in this particular case, he does an extremely good job revealing some of the core revelations from today's hearing. Let's watch. 

 

(Video 00:42:40) 

 

Rep. Jim Jordan: Look forward, the Democrats tell us. Focus on the future. Might have started in the lab, might have, might have happened in nature. But here's the question I keep coming up with. If it may have been a lab, maybe in nature, we're supposed to look forward, then why did Dr. Fauci work so hard for just one of those theories? Why was it so important to push one over the other? Dr. Barra said, Oh, we should entertain all hypotheses, Dr. Fauci, that his hypothesis, how this started, we should entertain all of them. But that's not what happened. That is definitely not what happened. Three years ago, if you thought it came from a lab if you raised that, you were called a nut job, you got censored on Twitter, you were blacklisted on Twitter, you were even called a crackpot by the very scientist who, in late January, sent emails to Dr. Fauci and said it came from a lab. They called you crackpot, is that right, Dr. Redfield? 

 

Dr. Redfield, former CDC director: I think the most upsetting thing to me was the Baltimore Sun calling me a racist because I said this came from a Wuhan lab. 

 

 

Let's not forget that part of it, either. One of the most nefarious parts of this all. Think about how they weaponized racism and racism accusations in order to foreclose this debate. They didn't just accuse people raising the lab leak possibility of being crackpots or being anti-science, even though this particular person was the head of the CDC. They didn't just do that. They didn’t just insult their intelligence or their rationality or their judgment, they did all that too. They accused everybody suspecting a lab leak of being a racist, of being an anti-Asian racist, of trying to stimulate racial hatred against the Chinese. Do you see how readily and casually American elites weaponize racism accusations like a plaything, like their little toy to manipulate public discourse and to prevent people from dissenting upon the pain of being called a racist? 

First of all, the whole concept of racism had no role at all in the inquiry over where the COVID pandemic came from. It was a purely scientific question. It's impossible for any one theory or the other to be racist. It's either true or false. That's the only import. That's the only relevant metric. Is it true or is it false? Nor is it ethical or moral or racist. But beyond that, it was always so bizarre to me that the people who were accusing dissenters of being racists were pushing a theory that if anything – if anything – was racist. This was by far the most racist theory, which is that the Chinese have extremely filthy, primitive and unsanitary eating practices and wet markets, filled with filth and disease. They have crazy, primitive ideas, of what animals can and can't be eaten. They eat bats, they eat pangolins. The people who are pushing that theory were the ones accusing others of racism, even though there's, I don't think, any better way to stimulate anti-Asian animus than by telling the world the reason their economies are shut down, they have to stay at home and their parents are dying, they can't attend their parents’ funerals or visit them as they die in the hospital, is because the Chinese are so unsanitary and primitive and their dietary habits, that they created a global pandemic they unleashed on the world this twisted fatal virus. That was their theory. 

I personally don't care about whether any of it is racist. I care only about whether it was true but it is remarkable to watch in real-time how they do that, how they just label any view that they want marginalized: they just label it racist. I think it's very important to remember, going forward, whenever they deploy accusations of this kind, to remember what they did here because this is what they always do. They don't care about racism at all. They cynically exploit it, as they did in this case, to force people into submission to the views that they want the public to believe for their own interest. It is a self-serving tactic and if anything is racist, it is looking at racism as a toy to play with for these ends. And that's exactly what American elites do. And this was one of the most vivid cases of how they did it. Let's look at another exchange with the former CDC director. 

 

(Video 00:47:44) 

Dr. Robert Redfield, Former CDC Director:  Because it was told to me that they wanted a single narrative and then I obviously had a different point of view. 

 

Rep. N. Malliotakis:  Okay. In emails following the conference call, the 11 scientists told Fauci that they all found the genetic sequence inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory, basically is what you're saying. However, just three days later, these four scientists had drafted a paper arguing the exact opposite, and that's now the infamous “Proximal origins of SARS CoV2”. Our investigation shows, this paper was prompted by Dr. Fauci, among others, with a goal to disprove the lab leak theory. What is the likelihood that these scientists came across additional information just three days after making these statements to conclude with such certainty that COVID-19 came from nature instead of the lab leak that they thought it was three days earlier? 

 

Dr. Robert Redfield, Former CDC Director: I think it's unfortunate. Again, I've said this before, that this whole approach that was taken on February 1, and subsequently in the month of February, if you really want to be truthful, it's antithetical to science. Science has debate and they squashed any debate. 

 

Rep. N. Malliotakis:  Thank you. 

 

 

That's exactly what happened. 

Let me just remind you of the sequence of events that at the time convinced a lot of people that health experts were yet another institution of authority that didn't deserve any trust or faith, but only contempt and scorn. Which was, you remember, I'm certain, that for the first four months, five months of 2020, all we heard was your only moral obligation is to stay at home. Stay at home. Anybody who leaves their house for any reason is a sociopath willing to murder old people or sacrifice the lives of old people for their personal interests. That included wanting to go visit your parents in the hospital, wanting to go attend their funeral, wanting to take your kids to a deserted beach so they get air and sun, wanting to attend a political protest against these rules and laws that had been implemented that severely restricted our civil liberties and our ability to movement. There was no excuse of any kind that justified your leaving your home. The only moral option for any decent person was to park yourself at home and not move there unless absolutely necessary. That's what health officials told us for months. And then, we had the death of George Floyd at the hands of the Minneapolis Police Department, and throughout the country erupted one of the most densely packed street protest movements in the history of this country. And those very same health experts – who told you that you were not allowed to leave your home morally for any reason, including to protest – switched on a dime, the minute they had a protest they liked and that aligned with their ideology, and then, said, not only is it permissible for you to leave your home but it’s also your moral obligation to do so. There was a famous or notorious letter from health experts saying that because racism was actually a greater threat to public health than COVID, it was worth risking the spread of COVID in order to combat racism. So not only was it permissible, but it was actually an obligation now, morally, to leave your home to go attend a protest that they supported ideologically, it was still immoral to go to protests they didn't like, such as the protest against lockdown laws or school closings. 

A more brazen politicization of health expertise is almost impossible to imagine. And that was a moment, an epiphany for a lot of people, including myself. I wrote about it that day at The Intercept. The fact that here we now see what they were doing behind the scenes, that they completely switched on a dime. What they actually believed signed on to a letter they didn't believe with no scientific evidence at all, is all the more reason never to trust this group of elites again. And this hearing revealed that. Let's look at this last exchange, again with the former CDC director. 

 

(Video 00:52:07) 

Rep. B. Wenstrup: Dr. Redfield has gain-of-function created any lifesaving vaccines or therapeutics, to your knowledge? 

 

Dr. Robert Redfield, Former CDC Director: Not to my knowledge. 

 

Rep. B. Wenstrup: Has gain of function stopped a pandemic? In your opinion? 

 

Dr. Robert Redfield, Former CDC Director: No. On the contrary. I think it probably caused the greatest pandemic our world has seen. 

 

So that's the CDC director who was appointed by Donald Trump and therefore, a lot of people would be inclined to dismiss. But if you look at the history of who was right and who was wrong, who acted with integrity and who did not, he comes out extremely well, certainly way better than all the heroes we were given in the scientific community, starting with Dr. Fauci. And there he's telling you that he believes that the gain-of-function research, the attempt to manipulate this virus, to make it more susceptible to human transmission that was undertaken in that lab, he believes was the cause of this pandemic, something that we were not allowed to mention, literally prohibited from suggesting, on the Internet, upon pain of being removed and banned by the world's largest Internet companies. This is the danger of allowing censorship. This is the danger of placing blind faith in these corrupt elites. This is the serious harm that always emerges whenever institutions of authority are allowed to function without scrutiny, transparency, challenge and dissent. 


Russell Brand declared right-wing.

 

So, at the top of our show, I mentioned that there was an article not very important unto itself, but very revealing in terms of the arguments it made that I do want to spend just a few minutes examining because it's one of the most vivid articulations of how political labels are now wielded, but also the incredible reversal that has been imposed on our political discourse in a very short period of time. 

Now, as you probably have seen, it went very viral, the British comedian and political analyst Russell Brand – who I now consider a colleague because he has his own daily show right here on Rumble, that is exclusive to Rumble – went on the “Bill Maher Show” and ran circles around one of the mainstays of American establishment journalism, John Heilemann, who worked for years to Mark Halperin until Mark Halperin had this MeToo scandal, he's on “Morning Joe”, seemingly every day spouting establishment tripe and Russell basically humiliated him in all kinds of ways. 

The reaction to this, the attention that Russell got through that, but also by appearing on Joe Rogan's program a couple of days earlier, was that something happened to Russell Brand. He has radically changed. He was once somebody who was clearly a leftist, somebody who made – in the words of the New Statesman, we're about to show you – communism sexy, has instead become a far-right American culture war pundit. 

There you see the article. “We have lost Russell Brand”, and this is The New Statesman. It's, I would describe it, as a formerly left-wing, now a more establishment liberal, neoliberal journal. If I wanted to use their tactics of demonizing anything I disliked, I would call it a far-right fascist journal. But I'm not going to use their tactics. We're going to examine that topic instead by looking at this article. So, it's basically a formal declaration that Russell Brand is no longer an official card-carrying member of the left – as if anyone, including him, cares. But what is amazing are their reasons for concluding this and, in particular, the arguments that they cite, which they assert are the reasons to believe he's now on the far-right. 

I wanted to pull up the first paragraph. I hope we have that. If not, I'm going to need somebody to get that for me because essentially it's the most important article in which it lists the views that he now advocates, which they claim prove that he's now a man of the far-right and no longer a man of the left, really the crux of the argument. 

I have my own experience with this. I have had plenty of newspapers and magazines under the headline “What Happened to Glenn Greenwald?” Very similar ones saying, “Oh, the beloved heroic leftist has now become a tool of the far-right, even though they can't identify a single one of my views that I've changed. And oftentimes they cite views of mine that I've held and expressed and advocated for decades that now have suddenly somehow become a signifier of being on the far-right. And that's essentially what they're doing in this article to Russell Brand. They're saying he's no longer on the left. He's moved to the far right. And his proof of that, they say he went on Bill Maher and in general been advocating a bunch of views that are views that only someone on the far-right would actually assert. 

So here it is. Listen to these arguments that they cite as proof that Russell Brand is now on the far-right: “Speaking on the comedian Bill Maher’s talk show last weekend, Brand launched into a tinny rant that encompassed every right-wing signaling trope.”

“Every right-wing signaling trope” he expressed on “Bill Maher’s Show.” What are these right-wing signaling tropes? According to the new statement: 1) the ghoulish mainstream media. So, if you dislike the mainstream media, if you don't trust them if you think they're corrupt, the corporate media, you are now expressing a right-wing trope that the media, the corporate media is bad. The next one, is “the dishonest and untrustworthy pharmaceutical industry”. If you distrust or harbor suspicion of Big Pharma, Pfizer and the rest, that is now proof that you are on the far right. You're spreading far-right tropes. The next one: “The West's shameful treatment of Julian Assange and Scarecrow American hero Edward Snowden”. So, if you believe that Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are heroic, for having revealed secrets showing that the U.S. Security State committed war crimes and lied to the public and spied on them in mass with no warrants, and if you oppose the persecution of those two whistleblowers and journalists, in the case of Julian Assange, that too means that you're somehow now on the far-right. If you like, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange and opposed their imprisonment by the West, you're now on the far right. And the last one was, “the COVID drug Ivermectin. In other words, if you question the pronouncements of the same health authorities that – we just showed you – systemically, deliberately, lied to the public, you're also now on the far-right. 

No distrusting health officials, no protecting whistleblowers who expose the crimes of the Security State, no distrust in Big Pharma and most of all, no suspicion of the corporate media: anything that you do that expresses those views according to this New Statesman article places you on the far-right. These are far-right tropes. Even though the article acknowledges, then pivoted leftward and rounded off his angry sermon with an endorsement for Bernie Sanders. That's exactly right. Russell Brand continues and always has supported Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn. They acknowledge that, and yet he's nonetheless on the far right because he dislikes the mainstream media, Big Pharma and the persecution of Edward Snowden and Julian Assange. 

Let me look at one more part of this article because, actually, we are to look at two more. Here's another one that essentially says that if you are somebody who distrusts the U.S. Security State and the U.S. posture of endless war and the motives for why the United States keeps going to war, then that two makes you on the far-right 

As for any self-styled alternative media guru, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a central theme of inquiry. Brand quotes long passages of texts from Substack about the true intentions of Tony Blair and Hillary Clinton; he suggests it is a proxy war fought with the ultimate ambition of privatizing Ukraine. When he shouts about the military-industrial complex, intentionally generating a state of perpetual crisis, he means it. Brand is not just paranoid about intervention, he's actively conspiratorial about it (The New Statesman. March 7, 2023). 

 

So if you are now somebody who opposes or questions the motives of Western wars, if you think that maybe there's an economic motive to why the U.S. continually finds reasons to fuel wars and to purchase large amounts of armaments – the way every single person on the left in 2002 was claiming about Dick Cheney's reason to go to war in Iraq, that it would help Halliburton – if you are somebody who thinks there's a military-industrial complex that generates perpetual war in order to satisfy economic motives or suspicions about the reasons they're giving – if you don't really believe that they're fighting wars to safeguard democracy and vanquish authoritarianism – then now you too are on the far right, that places you on the far right. That's another view that if you believe means you're a fascist. Now that then concludes. But look at this last one here. It says, 

 

Whatever it is, Brand has internalized assumptions generated by a brand of heterodox American Joe Rogan. Glenn Greenwald. Tucker Carlson […] 

 

These are the people who have manipulated Russell Brand and lured him out of leftism and convinced him to become a far-rightist. Like us, myself, Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson, 

[…] while clinging to a veneer of old fashioned British socialism. But perhaps that tension is not as awkward as it seems. The soul of Corbynism, for example, is the argument that a cabal of elite capitalists have manipulated the system against the everyman. 

 

They’ve stitched up our political system to protect the powerful. The former Labor leader said in early 2017, “to line the pockets of their friends”. There are few journalists in the United States who talk more about the rigged system than Tucker Carlson; it is exactly the mode of politics Brand trades in too (The New Statesman. March 7, 2023).  

 

And then here's the key revelation that they stumbled into: “Perhaps the two movements are not as uneasy bedfellows as they appear”. In other words, perhaps the way to look at this is not “left versus right” anymore, or “Republican versus Democrat” but, instead, people who trust global institutions of authority – the Pentagon, the U.S. Security State, Big Pharma, the military-industrial complex, the CIA – versus people who distrust those institutions, and that there are a lot of populists on the left and the right who now find common ground because they stand in opposition to these globalist institutions and distrust their integrity and their motives and believe that they do more harm than good. It kind of stumbles into the truth that the most important framework is no longer these archaic labels of “left” and “right”. But whether you question these global institutions of power and whether you stand in favor of – or opposed to –authoritarian measures, like having Big Tech form a union with the government to censor the Internet; or having the Pentagon in the U.S. Security State dictate to Big Tech whether dissent to wars is permitted. 

I agree that that is the much more relevant framework now that this article inadvertently stumbles into. But, of course, it can't concede that because like most traditional media outlets, this magazine only understands the world through these very labels of “left” versus “right”, “Labor” versus “Tory”, “Democrat” versus “Republican”. 

And so, they need to cling to this. And so, they end with this smearing of Brand’s reputation, this kind of very lazy way to try and discredit him. 

 

But one thing is abundantly clear: Brand is fighting the American culture wars from a shed in Oxfordshire. His demand to be taken seriously is a rather weak one (The New Statesman. March 7, 2023).

 

 It's just a very lazy way to conclude the article after essentially acknowledging that there's a good reason why people like Russell Brand now have a lot in common with right-wing populists because people on the left and right have come to the same conclusion about these gigantic institutions of authority that they're corrupt and should be opposed. They then have to just discredit him as being on the far-right, as being some rich elite who has no grounds for saying any of this, because they can't allow people to realize that they want to keep separate from these labels - that in fact, we have a lot more common ground than they want us to realize. 

So, we have been over many times the data before that shows that, in fact, people who identify as Democrats are far more supportive of Big Tech censorship and of state censorship. That opposition to the U.S. war and the U.S. role in fueling the proxy war in Ukraine comes from conservatives and not liberals, who are almost overwhelmingly, almost entirely unanimously in favor. That admiration for the CIA and the FBI is found on the left and distrust and cynicism about those agencies is found on the right. There have been real changes in the political framework and how left and right now see the world. All the data that we've shown you many times demonstrates that. But I think this attempt to try and grapple with where to place Russell Brand or Joe Rogan or Tucker Carlson or myself on the metric that is the crude and primitive one, the only one they understand, the “left versus right” – the reason it doesn't matter is that those labels don't really matter. All that matters to me is: Are you somebody who is willing to be skeptical of the institutions of authority – that we just showed you through this hearing are very willing to lie to everyone, to lie to the world for their own interest and to censor dissent from their lies, to serve their own interests. That is the most relevant question that I care about, at least, that shapes my view of the world. I don't try and decide what is the left-wing or right-wing view before or now analyzing a certain position. I don't care about ‘Does it help the Republican or the Democratic Party’? The establishment wings of each, I believe, have far more in common than difference. 

The only thing I care about is applying skepticism to these institutions of authority that I know are constructed to lie and deceive and serve their own interest at your expense. And I don't care any longer whether someone wants to claim that's a right-wing value or a left-wing value. Is it a right-wing or a left-wing value to oppose Big Tech's censorship in concert with the CIA and the FBI? Is it a right-wing or left-wing value to question the posture of endless war and whom that serves? Is it the right-wing or left-wing value to believe that Julian Assange and Edward Snowden performed a public service by revealing these hidden crimes in secret deceits and lies? Is any right-wing or left-wing value to being happy that the truth about Anthony Fauci and the COVID pandemic is finally emerging? I don't care. And I don't think there's any coherent answer because these labels don't serve to clarify these debates. They serve to keep us divided. 

And so, if you're somebody who wants to find the truth and who wants to unify as many people as possible in opposition to these institutions, you too, shouldn't care about these labels. This article reveals how bankrupt they are. The idea that Russell Brand is now on the far-right for supporting ideas he's forever supported and then has long been associated with the left they're so easily manipulated – these labels – just like the racism accusations that health authorities used to deem anyone supporting the lab leak theory as being not just a conspiracy theory but an ill-intentioned and malevolent one. So, the more these institutions do this, the more skepticism people have of them, and the more people distrust them. That applies to the corporate media, the U.S. Security State, Big Pharma, and the health authorities, and the better off we are – because these institutions are absolutely ill-intentioned, they're the ones that spread disinformation. The more skepticism, the better, and the least important and least interesting question is whether or not doing so places you on the left or the right. 

 

 

So that concludes our show for this evening. Once again, as a reminder, every episode of System Update is available in podcast form on Spotify, on Apple, and on every major podcasting platform. Simply follow System Update on Rumble. Make sure to do the System Update on Rumble. There's an old version of The Intercept that you should definitely not follow for many reasons, including the fact that it's defunct. The System Update on Rumble is the one to follow. You can listen to those episodes 12 hours after they appear first, live, here, exclusively on Rumble. 

Thank you once again for all of you have been watching. It's made our audience size grow and grow and grow, and that makes our show more and more successful.

Thank you, everybody, for watching. Have a great evening. We hope to see you back here tomorrow night and every night, at 7 p.m. EST, exclusively on Rumble. 

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System Update #501

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I am again on the road, specifically in New York City, in a hotel room, as I will be participating in a debate tomorrow night, hosted by the Soho Forum and Reason Magazine, regarding the constitutionality of President Trump's various deportation policies and other related questions. 

I have a lot I want to talk about, beginning with the decision and announcement by President Trump to basically, at least the moment, federalize the Police Department of Washington, D.C., as well as activate the National Guard to patrol the streets of Washington in response to what President Trump says is a serious out of control, crime epidemic. We'll look at both the legality and constitutionality of that decision and some of its implications. 

Also, again, every time we say that we don't think that there's any way for Israel to go any lower, for them to engage in any more horrific atrocities, they somehow do seem to find a way. Last night, they slaughtered five Al Jazeera journalists, including, arguably, the Al Jazeera journalist who has become the eyes and ears of Gaza for most of the time in all of the West; Anas al-Sharif was killed alongside four other journalists. This is now the 278th journalist that the Israelis have slaughtered in Gaza. Israel admits that it was a targeted killing, that they killed him on purpose and the Israeli claim, needless to say, I don't even need to tell you it's so predictable, is that, “Oh, he was Hamas,” and so therefore they were justified in killing him. 

Earlier today, another equally influential and prominent journalist had his house targeted with an Israeli bomb. It didn't kill the journalist, but it killed 10 members of his family. And then when rescue workers came to try to salvage those who were among the survivors, they bombed again, what's called a double tap, and they killed even more people. We have a horrific video of that. It really has gotten to the point where the contempt, the repulsion and condemnation that all decent people around the world have are insufficient for the magnitude of the atrocities. 

Of course, the U.S. government and both parties continue to support it. We'll have a clip from JD Vance for an interview that he gave on Fox News earlier today where he was asked about what he thinks of the Israeli plan to occupy all of Gaza, which, needless to say, has already resulted and will continue to result in even more killing of innocent people at a far more indiscriminate rate. We also have a response from Pete Buttigieg, who was once the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, and somehow parlayed that into a position as Secretary of Transportation under Joe Biden. He was asked about Israel on the Pod Save America podcast and gave the sort of technocratic, meaningless, mealy-mouthed, noncommittal, frightened response that has caused even Democratic Party partisans, let alone everybody else, to absolutely despise Democrats, not even for ideology, just because of their complete cowardice as for ever take a position or say anything whatsoever. He's a McKinsey consultant and that's exactly how he talks about everything: completely dead-eyed, passion-free, afraid to take any position on anything. 

There’s a lot to talk about. 

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The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

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Welcome to episode 500 of System Update, which means that over the last two years, ever since we launched in December of 2022, 500 times I have sat my ass in this chair, and we have done a program for you. Today is number 500. 

System Update, of course, is our live nightly show that airs every Monday through Friday at 7 p.m. Eastern, exclusively here on Rumble, the free speech alternative to YouTube. 

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Every Friday night, as we're doing tonight, we take questions solely from our Locals members. We try to answer as many as we can.

 You may have noticed as well that, inspired by Donald Trump, all art today in commemoration of 500 shows is in gold, not our typical green and black. No, everything is gold. We went all out for tonight. So, I really hope you enjoy it.

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The first of which is from @alan_smithee. And he asked this:

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One of the reasons why I didn't talk about it, despite obviously being extremely interested in all three of them and the subject matter that they cover, I obviously am a longtime friend of Tucker’s. I used to be on the show, I think more than anybody else, when he was on Fox News, and now, on his podcast, I'm on frequently, maybe the guest who's been on the most as well, not really sure. It's not a competition. I don't know why I have to keep saying I'm at the top of the charts, but just to indicate the frequency, and he's been on our show before. So, I definitely consider him a friend of mine. Candace, I have a good relationship; I would describe it as friendly. I've chatted with Nick over the years a little bit, certainly not near the same level of interaction. 

I had this issue with Matt Taibbi. I was recently on Briahna Joy Gray's show, but also, I might have even been on a different show, where people were trying to ask me about Matt Taibbi and some of the criticism of him. Yeah, we've gotten questions about Matt Taibbi here as well over the past few months about things like his refusal to comment on Israel and Gaza, his infrequent commentary on the First Amendment issues raised by deporting students who speak critically of Gaza, the imposition of hate speech codes on American campuses by the Trump administration to shield Israel from criticism. 

I'm very honest about the fact that when someone is your friend, when you consider someone as your friend, at least for me, I really don't feel comfortable publicly criticizing them. It's actually one of the reasons why I go out of my way not to be friends or have any social ties with the people I'm supposed to be covering in Washington – politicians, major journalists. I've always thought the fact that I don't live in New York or Washington to be one of the greatest benefits for my journalism because I'm not in the middle of their social scenes. I don’t owe any social niceties to them. I don't feel as though if I criticize them, it's going to affect my social life or put me in uncomfortable positions. I take the obligation of friendship seriously. If you're actually somebody's friend, it comes with loyalty, and part of that loyalty is that, if you have problems with what they do and say, you go to them privately. It would take a lot for me to publicly criticize or down someone I consider my friend.

 I'm just being honest about that. Maybe that's not even the right thing to do. I'm not praising myself. I'm telling you how I feel personally. But again, I think if you live in New York, if you live in Washington, and you're integrated into that political media world, that is one of the reasons why it's so incestuous, why they constantly cover for each other, why there's so much groupthink within it. 

They're always talking to each other, for each order. To be part of these social scenes on which they depend, you have to be welcome. Part of being welcome is that you don't stray too far from their dogma. And I've always aggressively kept a very distant arm's length from people in positions of power, from major media figures, so that I don't feel constrained about giving my honest views or critiques or analysis or reporting on them. 

Occasionally, you do become friends with people almost by accident, who then end up in positions of power. Tulsi Gabbard is a good example. I have no problem criticizing Tulsi Gabbard because, whatever good relations I've had with her before, she's now the director of National Intelligence, and I'm not going to pull punches when I have critiques of Tulsi and I am also going to praise her only because I feel the praise is warranted. 

So, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that somebody has risen to a particular position or entered a type of power position, and there's just no getting around the fact that your job requires honest critique. I don't feel like that's the case for any of the people involved here, Tucker, Candace, or Nick Fuentes. I don't feel like any of them is a government official. Obviously, they all do have a great deal of influence in very different ways. So, I don't want to side with any one of them, nor do I want to necessarily say that I think insults or criticisms that they've launched at each other are warranted, but it is an extremely important conversation, so I also don't want to avoid it entirely, because for one thing these are three people, and obviously people understand how influential Tucker and Candace are. They're arguably the two most prominent conservative journalists/pundits, influencers. Maybe you could put Charlie Kirk in there, maybe Ben Shapiro, but Tucker and Candace are both bigger. I mean, Tucker hosted the most-watched show in the history of cable news for five years at the 8 o'clock spot on Fox. He's been on TV for 25 years before that. And Candace is just a powerhouse. She's a force of nature. Whatever you think of her, whatever you think of the Macron stuff, whatever you're thinking for Israel stuff, whatever, I'm leaving that on the side, I'm just saying. 

The fact of the matter is that when Candace left The Daily Wire, which, of course, is founded and run by Ben Shapiro after she had a falling out with Ben Shapiro and Jeremy Boreing, the other co-founder, over her criticism of Israel, which at the time was very mild – she was basically saying, “I don't think we should be bombing and killing children.” – that was pretty much the extent of it which caused this massive upheaval. A lot of people wondered, well, what is she going to do? Just like people wondered what Tucker Carlson was going to do, and they both went on to become, in my view, far more influential. 

I'm not saying that Tucker's position in the mediocre system now is necessarily larger than it is at the 8 o'clock spot on Fox News, but being at the 8 o'clock hour on Fox News comes with a lot of constraints, as he found out when he got fired, despite being the highest rated host on all of cable news. And he's completely liberated of those constraints now, I mean, completely. Completely. He's financially set. Fox is still paying this gigantic contract. He also now has a very successful platform. I mean, he's not worried about saying or doing whatever he wants. I know he feels – he said this before, publicly, not just in our conversations – that there were a lot of things he did as part of his career that he deeply regrets. Just being part of the Washington Group. 

I think he was raised there. I mean, he wasn't raised physically in Washington, but he eventually went there. But his father was very integrated into the U.S. deep state, that we could call it, ties to the CIA, he ran the propaganda arm of the U.S. government, Voice of America, was very, very integrated into that world. He grew up with a lot of wealth and privileges as he will tell you, and so when he got to Washington and got on TV very early on, he really was just immersed in this subculture that led him to believe, or at least not even necessarily to believe but to say a lot of things that he didn't really fully believe, or maybe that you can get yourself to believe things that you don't really believe because you just feel like it's what everyone around you expects you to say. 

Unlike a lot of people who are guilty of the same thing, Tucker has probably more than anybody else been extremely candid about what he regrets, and not only what he regrets, I'm not just talking about support for the Iraq war, I'm talking about the whole support that he gave for George Bush, Dick Cheney, neoconservative ideology, and not just on foreign policy, but also on economic policy and I think it's often overlooked. Everyone sees his head in foreign policies. Even when he was at Fox, he was criticizing Trump for doing things like assassinating General Soleimani, saying, “This is not in our interest. This might be in the interest of neocons or Israel, but why would we risk a war with Iran when that's not in our interest?” He was saying things like that even on Fox. He probably was the single most influential figure who took a lot of MAGA people, a lot of people on the right, and turned them against the war in Ukraine every night. 

I was on his show dozens of times talking about that war to the point where when he got fired from Fox, a bunch of Republican lawmakers ran to Politico or Axios anonymously and celebrated his firing and saying, “Oh, now our lives are going to be much easier. We can now fund the war in Ukraine without as much public pushback.” And that trajectory was because not just that he regretted what he had previously advocated and acknowledged his wrongdoing, but he was and is really determined to kind of repent for it. And he feels like the way to repent for it is by never again allowing himself to be blind. 

He moved out of Washington, used to live in the middle of Georgetown, where Victoria Nuland lived, I think, down the street or the other street. I mean, that's where they all lived. Now, he lives in rural Maine. He also lives on an island in Florida. He purposely took himself to very isolated places that are completely detached from that world, for the same reason as I was just describing. Not only do you feel less constrained, but you see things more clearly. You don't wake up every day and immediately get surrounded by people who are just part of this blob of groupthink and so, you're able to analyze things from a distance. It’s sort of like if you go into a big city and you're on a street corner, the vision that you have of what the city looks like is radically different than if you fly over it because that distance from what you're looking at gives you a better perspective, or at least, maybe not even better, but different. And the same thing happens when you move out of Washington or New York, and you purposely stay away from it, you start to see things more clearly because you're not immersed in it. And I do find that extremely valuable. 

I find that trajectory very, very positive. It's one of the reasons why, probably more than anything else that I've ever done, what caused much of the left turn against me, not all, but much, was number one, my refusal to get on board with Russiagate, but number two, my association with Tucker. I saw early on that there was a real movement within parts of the populist right, which you're now seeing in lots of different ways, not just questioning Israel and foreign policy and war, but also corporatism and the idea of economic populism. And yes, there are lots of deviations from it, but I mean Tucker and a few others were what made me see how real that was and how much of an opportunity there was, and not just to keep yourself in prison in the Democratic Party. 

So, I do believe Tucker's trajectory is real. I do believe that he's sincere and genuine in what he's saying. You never know what's fully in a person's heart, not even your own heart. You can't know for certain. You can deceive yourself about your own motives, your own thoughts and even the people you're closest to, your friends. But I have enough confidence in how well I know him, not just professionally, but personally as well, the time we spent together, the time that we've talked, that I do believe that he's very authentic in what he's saying. I think his trajectory is continuing. I don't think he's stopped at the point where he's going to be. And I think it's been very positive on almost every level. 

So that’s Tucker over here; then let's kind of put Candace in a similar position. I don't know Candace as well, so I can't comment to that degree of confidence about who she is and why she's doing what she's doing, but, two years ago, Candace worked at The Daily Wire, four years ago, she was in Jerusalem with Charlie Kirk celebrating Trump's move of the capital of Israel to Jerusalem, a long-time pipe dream, what seemed like a pipe dream of the furthest, most radicalized Greater Israel fanatics and their supporters in the United States. And there was very little criticism coming from Candace about Israel. In fact, the opposite was true. 

In her case, she's a lot younger than Tucker, she's only been around for not all that long, and I know personally that when you start off doing this work and you're able to spend full time digging into things, if you're minimally a critical thinker, if you're minimally open-minded, your views are going to morph the more you learn, the more you dive into things, the more you experience things. That is healthy and normal. And I do believe that her views, which she most passionately expresses, to which she pays the most attention, are genuine, which isn't the same thing as saying I agree with them all and they're all positive. I'm just saying I believe she also believes the things she's saying. I don't think it's calculated. I don't think it's about grifting. If it were, she could have stayed at The Daily Wire. There are easier ways to make a popular path than doing what she does. 

She defends Harvey Weinstein. She took up that case. There was hardly a public clamoring for that, especially among the audience that she cultivated. Also, the Macron stuff, all the stuff with Israel – she's been excluded from a lot of mainstream corporate media circles to which she used to have complete access and in which she could have risen without limits, obviously She’s very talented, like Tucker, she is a communicator, and she chose a much harder path, and I think that was through genuine conviction. There are many differences between Tucker and Candace, but for that purpose, you can put them together. 

And then you have Nick Fuentes. And just for those of you who haven't seen it, I'm just going to give you this summary of what's happened in the past few months, not going back years. The short version of this is that Nick Fuentes is often very critical of people who seem like they're the closest to him politically. So, he spends a lot of time criticizing Charlie Kirk – I was going to say Ben Shapiro, but I don't think Ben Shapiro is remotely close to Nick Fuentes – but Charlie Kirk on the surface could be. He spent a lot of time criticizing Matt Walsh. And he has also hurled a lot of criticism and might even say insults toward Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson. 

In response, Candace Owens invited him for the first time on her podcast. Although I do think they have far more views in common than differences, the podcast was a bit hostile. I would say it's, in part, because Candace had some acrimonious points to raise with him, but also because – and she played some of these clips, I mean, Nick Fuentes had very harshly attacked her and criticized her, calling her a bitch who doesn't know what she's doing, and if you're going to do that, the people who are your targets are not necessarily going to love you, and so this was really the triggering event. 

She invited him to her podcast. He got a huge audience – between Candace and Nick Fuentes, who has a gigantic following online, in some ways you could argue he's as influential these days as Candace and Tucker, and maybe headed for even surpassing them, which again, generationally is natural – but because that interview was acrimonious and brought out a lot of tensions and personal conflicts, it kind of spilled over online because Nick left that interview and started really condemning Candace, accusing her of sandbagging him in the interview and the like, and then they had a big fight online. 

And then, before you knew it, Tucker asked Candace to come to his podcast. So, you're now talking about Candace Owens on Tucker Carlson's podcast, obviously a gigantic interview. And both of them, I don't know if they planned it, but both of them talked about Nick Fuentes in an extremely derogatory way. I mean, Tucker did acknowledge that, which you cannot deny. It's kind of like you can hate Trump all you want, but there's no denying his charisma, his skill in communicating, and the fact that he's very funny. 

For a long time, it was like heresy to say that, but there's no denying that that's true. I have no trouble admitting that people I can't stand are smart. I think Dick Cheney is very smart. I actually think Liz Cheney is very smart, just to give two examples, a lot of other ones as well. You can acknowledge the skills and assets that people have who you dislike or even despise. It’s not inconsistent. So, Tucker did acknowledge, like, look, Nick Fuentes is spectacularly talented. He is like a very rare, generational talent in terms of his ability to go before the camera, attract attention and be charismatic. But he's not like a ranter and a raver. Nick Fuentes is very well read, very, very informed. There aren't a lot of people who know more about the topics Nick Fuentes covers than Nick Fuentes does. It's very impressive. And that combination of being very charismatic, an extremely adept communicator, just kind of a natural camera presence, and having really smart insights that are grounded not in sensationalism or blind ideology, but lots of reading and thinking and critical evaluation, it's very potent. That's the reason why he's becoming so popular that even people at the heights of Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson can't really ignore it anymore. 

They talked about Nick Fuentes as though he were just sort of some loser, like Tucker was saying, like, “How did he become so influential? He was just this gay kid living in his mother's basement in Chicago.” And I don't think Tucker quite meant it that way, but that is how some of it came off. Both agreed that he was some sort of psyop to destroy the right, that he maybe was a Fed working for the CIA. 

That led Nick to do a series of shows, a couple of segments, where he just tore into Tucker and Candace, particularly Tucker, in a way that suggests that he was: “How can you possibly call me this, Psyop, or this operative, or this person who works for the CIA, when you spent your whole life inside these circles? Candace Owens was the one working for Ben Shapiro, and Tucker Carlson was working for Rupert Murdoch, making millions; Nick Fuentes wasn't. 

Nick's basic point was, like, you’re all very late to this game, like criticizing Israel, talking about the influence of the Israel lobby in the United States. You've only started doing this last year, whereas I've been doing it for years. This is what I think is at the heart of the matter: there are people who have been talking about Israel in this way for a long time. Noam Chomsky did, Norman Finkelstein did. 

One of the most important events was in 2007 when two of the most prestigious political scientists and international relations scholars in the United States, John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, wrote a book called “The Israel Lobby.” First, it was an essay in the London Review of Books, and then it turned into this massive tome, this 700-page book. It’s footnoted to the hilt because they're scholars, and they wrote the book that way. At the time, nobody on the mainstream was willing to say that. It was pretty much confined to the left, where you were free to say it. 

So, at the time, I was more associated with the left, perceived as being on the left. So, I was saying all these things for many years, but it wasn't all that risky for me because of the political camp that people perceived that I was in. I've always had one foot in that left-wing camp back then and one foot in the kind of libertarian, more independent camp, but in both of those camps it was totally fine, totally even welcome to talk about why we do so much for Israel, the evils of Israel, how they control our politics, how we go to war for them, how much money we spend to support them. 

So, I wasn't taking any risks – I've taken risks in my career, but I don't consider that as one – but Nick Fuentes, when he started doing it, was 18 years old, and he had this very promising future inside conservative media. At 18, he'd already been spotted as a talent. He had small shows, but he was making connections with and networking with some of the people who were very influential inside corporate media. People now forget, because now there's a lot of space for talking this way about Israel, but at the time, there was basically none. 

Before Donald Trump, there was almost nobody on the right willing to talk this way about Israel. You had Pat Buchanan, who did it for a long time, going back to the ‘80s, and he was viciously smeared as an anti-Semite. You had Ron Paul, who did the same thing. And then you had Trump kind of come in and create this space, and Nick Fuentes started really looking into it. I'm going into this not because of the personalities, but because I think they raise very broader issues about how all of this has evolved, not just for them, but for the broader discourse. 

Fuentes started off in conservative politics. At first, he thought Israel was our greatest ally and we have to support them: all the standard Republican and conservative views that have dominated both Republican and Democratic Party politics for decades. But then, the more he started questioning it, the more he started becoming vocal about it. And the more he became vocal about it, the more he became shunned inside the conservative media world, in which he had a very bright future. And rather than shutting up, as he was told to do, knowing that that might be better for his career, he couldn't. He just doesn't have that personality type. And he just had to keep examining it and keep saying it, and to say that Nick Fuentes paid a price for that is an understatement. Nick Fuentes has been excluded and booted out of every conceivable precinct of conservative media, even ones that consider themselves radical, dissident and far-right ones. I was playing on the mainstream ones. 

He was physically banned from going to Charlie Kirk's “Turning Points USA” and lots of other conferences like that. He was fired from the media platforms he was starting to develop. He was shunned by the friends that he had made, younger people on the side of the conservative movement. Then, it escalated from there. He got banned from almost every social media platform, including X. Elon Musk eventually reinstated him once he bought X, where he now is, but the only platform where he could be was Telegram. Now, he's on Rumble because Rumble is a genuine free speech platform. He has a show on Rumble that he does, I think, every night or four nights a week, and has found a good-sized audience. But really, it was on Twitter that he got his most attention, and that's why they banned him from Twitter in the pre-Musk era. But it wasn't just that. 

He wasn't just silenced and banned throughout all social media; he was also debanked. He had bank accounts closed, because of his political views, by major banks in the United States. He would get rejected for banking applications. He was put on a No-Fly list, which is the first time I really spoke about Nick, when I raised serious concerns about No-Fly lists being used in this way. His career has been severely impeded, not from what people believe are his racist views about Black people or immigrants; tons of people have those views and are perfectly welcome and fine in right-wing circles. The sole cause of it was his opposition to Israel and his questioning of the power of the Jewish lobby to keep the United States subservient to Israel. It just wasn't said. It was just a taboo. It was one of the third rails of American political discourse that would get anybody fired or destroyed for talking about it. 

Now, a lot of people talk about it, and it's become almost mainstream, but back then, especially on the right, almost nobody did. He paid a huge price, personally, financially, for his career, for his reputation, for his friendships, for his ability to get bank accounts. The government even put him on a no-fly list. And then last year, let's not forget, a homicidal maniac came to his house to try to murder him; shot two of his neighbors and killed them, and showed up at his house with a very large automatic weapon. This person eventually ended up being killed by the police. Another woman showed up at his house, a crazy liberal woman whom he had to pepper-spray. So, he's paid a big price for this. 

I don't want to speak for him, but I definitely identify with this mindset. I've had it too, sometimes, which is that if you are the first person or one of the first people to kind of get out on that plank and you're taking the shots because of it and very few other people are willing to join you,  and then at some point, it becomes a little safer to do it – I'm not saying it's safe; Tucker has also paid a price for it. I mean, half his audience has turned on him. He's now widely attacked by conservatives as being an anti-Semite, a Qatari agent, and Candace as well. So, it's not cost-free at all and Tucker didn't have to do it. He could have just ignored it. So, he's paid for a place too. 

But there's a big difference between Tucker Carlson in his mid-50s with a gigantic multimillion-dollar-year contract with Fox News, coming from the family that he came from, versus Nick Fuentes as a 22-year-old enduring all of that, and he comes from no wealth, no privilege. I think the idea is Nick feels like he was out on that plank, taking all these arrows and punishments, and then, in part, I do think that he helped open the space on the right to start talking more about Israel in a more honest way. It is true that Tucker and Candace, for the most part, hadn't really ever talked about it until after October 7, when, as Nick says, it almost became inevitable. They could have both ignored it. They could've both just spouted a few light lip services to it, but both of them made it very central to their cause, which they didn't have to do. It was not in their interest to do as well. But they did do it. 

But I think he feels like, I'm the one who actually paid the price for this. I was the one who was doing this earlier. Then the two of you come and now start doing it when it's a little bit safer, and also you're more protected because of your platform and standing in wealth, and you want to basically throw me in the garbage and declare me off limits, like, be the gatekeeper that says, you can go up to this point where Tucker and Candace are, but you can't go to Nick Fuentes; he's way too hateful or radical or dangerous or whatever. He feels like they're very late to the game, that he was braver, that he paid a bigger price and then they came along at an easier time and decided that they were the outer limits of where you can go on these discussions about Israel and the like. I'm not saying that's what I think, I'm saying that's what he thinks. I identify with that view. 

I think he would be fine if they would get there and say Nick Fuentes is one of the first people doing this, let's welcome him on our show. But the fact that he's still excluded, to the fact that they called him gay, loser, basically, in his parents' basement, implied that he was working for the CIA or was an agent, probably of Qatar, to destroy the right. I think that's what made him start being resentful, and also, there is this class issue here, which is very real. It's not his fault; Tucker's mother left them when he was very young. Then his father married an heiress from the Swanson fortune. And although she wasn't his mother. It was his stepmother. Obviously, he was living with his father and his stepmother, and they had a very good relationship. She was very good to him. And he ended up having all these benefits from a very young age. First, great wealth and privilege, and then some amount of fame, and then more fame, and then more wealth. And that's more or less been his life. 

Candace, I'm not sure about where she came from, what her family situation was, but once she got very big, she became very wealthy, and then she went to work for The Daily Wire, had a very lucrative contract there, and now she's married to, I heard Nick saying he's British royalty. I don't know if he is, maybe he is. I don't know one way or the other, but I know he's extremely wealthy. And I think there's a class issue there, too, which is like, you two purport to be the kind of warriors for this group of which you're not a part, which has kind of disaffected working-class white people. And Nick's saying, “I actually came from there and now suddenly you two, from your great mountain of wealth and privilege and lifelong or at least in Candace's case, years long, financial power and privilege and status and wealth, whatever, are coming in and trying to talk about me like I'm some loser and yeah I'm a loser in the sense that lots of white people have become trampled on by the United States and that is supposed to be what right-wing populism cares about.” 

So, I thought it was very telling. I do think, if I’m totally honest, it's more personal than substantive. I think Nick feels a lot of resentment for how he's been treated. 

I think Candace and Tucker feel resentment that they put a lot on the line to go where they went and one of the people who has a big influential audience, especially among young conservatives, have kind of gone to war with them. So, I think there's a lot of personal animist and personal resentment driving this, but there's also something very substantive here as well, which is about how people who are a little bit further along on the extremist train sometimes get attacked by the people who are less so, where they want to draw a line and kind of cut off the plank and have you fall off, even though you are on the plank first. I think Nick feels like that's being done to him, and I also think that there is a real class conflict that is driving a lot of this which is very much a part of the conservative world. I mean, huge amounts of conservative influencers, conservative pundits, conservative operatives who claim that they're there to speak for the working-class, for disaffected white people in the United States, are hanging out with billionaires every day and being funded by billionaires and meeting with billionaires and getting invites to the White House and to every center of power. And a lot of compromises are required to do that. And Nick's not willing to make them, and a lot of them are, and that is a substantive issue as well. 

Tucker and Candace, I do think, and they don't get very many invites to those circles. Tucker more than Candace. Tucker because he's been around for so long. He's good friends with people in the Trump administration. He campaigned for Trump, Trump likes him, even though Trump repudiated him and insulted him because of his opposition to the war in Iran. But there are a lot of tension points inside the MAGA movement that are very real, even if some of them are personally driven. We're human beings, we all harbor jealousies and vindictive sentiments and resentments. It's a Herculean effort to try to exclude those as much as possible. We all have to try; some of us do better than others. But none of us is immune from that. So, I'm not suggesting that it's a huge character flaw. I'm just saying I do think that's part of it. But I also think, at least as big of a part, if not bigger, are some of these ideological and class issues who's sort of keeping one foot in decent society and who's willing to say fully what they think without it. And the last thing I'll say is, and this is sort of what I began by saying, which is you can like somebody or not, but it doesn't mean you should lie about their skills or their successes. 

Nick Fuentes, I had a big online following for a few years, but it was very much a kind of online following that was almost like a cult following. It was like a very idiosyncratic group of people. They called themselves the Gropers. They didn't have a lot of cachet or influence outside of their circles, in part because Nick Fuentes wasn't invited anywhere into those more mainstream circles, or even less mainstream far-right circles. He kind of built his entire world himself. 

There are tons of successful podcasters and influencers who really don't have an original thought. They know what they have to get up and say to validate their audience, to show their loyalty to a particular circle. They may even have some talent in terms of rhetoric and communication, some charisma, but they're not very critically minded. They don't do a lot of reading. I can't tell you how often I listen to some of the podcasters of the biggest audience, and you're just like: How are you so ignorant? How do you think about these things? Do you ever stop and breathe and reflect, or read anything? Like read anything substantive in or bound like a Wikipedia page? So, there's a lot of that. 

But go listen to Nick Fuentes, if you haven't. And if you have preconceptions about what he is, I'm not saying that he doesn't say things that are provocative and deliberately cross lines on purpose sometimes, when he doesn't need to, just to cross them. Though I do think it's often purposeful, it's not just about a teenage transgressive instinct. 

So, there are definitely things he said that are offensive. Genuinely so, and not offensive in that, oh my god, you've offended me. But things that I think he would even acknowledge, he often says he doesn't really mean it, he is prone to rhetorical excess, and it's part of the whole presence. But everything that he talks about, he is extremely knowledgeable about and well-versed in. 

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Next question is from @edonk77, who says this:

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All right, the quick Ted Kaczynski story just for anyone who doesn't know it: out of nowhere in the ‘90s, in the Clinton administration, bombs started being sent to mailboxes. They were pretty sophisticated bombs, and they injured and even killed people. It was taking place across the country, and the FBI, the Attorney General, who at the time was Janet Reno, had no idea who was doing it. 

The person who was doing it wrote a letter, believed by the New York Times and the Washington Post, saying, “I will stop if you publish my essay about my ideas and what's motivating me.” And obviously, the instinct of the government is to say, “We’re not going to give in to your terrorist tactics,” which in classic terrorism is kind of what it was: it was violence directed at civilians to induce political and social change.  But it got to the point where the Justice Department was so desperate, they didn't have a first clue about who was doing that. It was like really the perfect crime. They agreed.

So, the Washington Post, maybe the New York Times, too, published this essay by Ted Kaczynski. The reason the Justice Department was willing to do it, aside from the fact that they thought it would help identify who it was, was because they thought what he had written was kind of just such lunacy, madness, that nobody would really read it and even think it deserved attention. And also, they were obviously made it known that the person who wrote that was the person who was sending these violent acts, the terrorist bombs, killing civilians or injuring civilians. They just assumed the hatred for him would overwhelm any interest in what he had to say. 

On one of those bets, they actually turned out to be right, because publishing this essay caused, eventually, Ted Kaczynski's brother, to come forward and say, “I think this is my brother. His writing seems familiar. His ideas are familiar.” That's how they were able to eventually track Ted Kaczynski down. 

Ted Kaczynski was a prodigy, recognized by everybody, as being brilliant – graduated high school at the age of 15, went to Harvard, completed a degree in mathematics. He then went to a PhD program, I think at the University of Chicago, at a top school, and then ended up teaching at Berkeley. And he was on the path of being the youngest ever tenured professor. He was a genuinely brilliant person, not brilliant in the sense that David Frum or Ann Abelbaum gets called brilliant, but genuinely brilliant. 

But what they were very wrong about was the fact that nobody would have any interest in his essay, that nobody would connect to any of his ideas, and that the hatred for Ted Kaczynski, even if people were willing to be open-minded, would make people refuse to read a terrorist essay and take it seriously. At first, that was true, but over time, people started turning to it and saying, “You know what? This seems quite important. There are a lot of ideas here that are very, very relevant and seem prophetic and explain a lot of what previously had been inexplicable.” 

I can't do a good job paraphrasing or summarizing the essay. It's very complex. It's highly worth reading. You can find it free online. It ended up being published in a longer-form, book format. You can read the essay in its long form or the book. But the basic theme of it was that technology was destroying humanity and the ability for human beings to live happy and fulfilled lives. And he traced it back to the Industrial Revolution, but then, how technology has advanced more and more. Before the Industrial Revolution, people were living in small towns, in villages, in nature like they had always lived on farms, had churches, had communities. They were very closely connected to their neighbors, to their extended family and they were living as human beings had lived for thousands of years. We're political and social animals. We need a connection. Without connection, human beings are going to go crazy. 

Eventually, we got to the point Charles Dickens was talking about: the hideous realities of living in gigantic cities as factory workers, completely exploited, working extremely long days for little pay. It is breaking people physically, spiritually, psychologically and emotionally, and that is definitely one of the costs, as we've even gone further down this road. 

And I think it's what Ted Kaczynski predicted, which is that the more technologically we come, the less human, the less fulfilled our natural human needs are. What it means to be human will be consumed by technology and turned into even more exploited tools and objects that barely look at us as humans, arranging our lives so that everything that gives us pleasure and is necessary for happiness is taken away. 

And just quickly on this, there's a Netflix documentary, I've mentioned this before, called “Happiness,” which is a documentary designed to ask, what is human happiness? How do humans acquire happiness? What is necessary and what isn't? And what they found is that a lot of what data reflects is that in many societies where people are economically deprived and without a lot of technology, they're much happier than in much wealthier Western countries. 

This documentary makes a very good case using science, not just pop psychology, about why, oftentimes, technological expansion and wealth expansion undermine human happiness. Ted Kaczynski also warned that, as technology evolved further and further, our societies are less humane, less fulfilling and less connected. And clearly, all of that is true. That is exactly what has happened. I'm not saying we need to dismantle it, but he actually lived those words, he dropped out of the whole matrix basically, when he was, I think 24, left his job as a faculty member and just went into the woods, lived a self-sufficient life off the grid, read, wrote, and did not much else other than working on his writing and his development and thoughts. The more he did that, the more he became convinced that being in the middle of this matrix was uniquely devastating to the ability of humans to be free and happy. 

Of course, that started resonating in America and in Europe and throughout the Western world as people became less and less happy. All the things he was describing as to why, and the role technology plays in that, would obviously exacerbate all that. Remember, this was 1995. I mean, the internet was just starting, but it was nowhere near as dominant in our lives. 

Obviously, with the internet, we often talk to people on phones or on screens. We have our phones everywhere. So, a lot of the human connection and interactivity you once had just walking on the street is now taken away from you because everybody's staring at their phones. You go to restaurants, any restaurant anywhere in the Western world, and you have people who are related, people who are friends, who talk a little, and they both pull out their phones. And before you know it, they're both staring at their phones, and especially with COVID, which forcibly segregated everybody and kept everybody at home, where people even developed a greater dependence on the internet to do everything, including interacting with other humans, this isolation has become far worse and all of the predictable pathologies that come with it that he predicted are also worsening very rapidly, in a very dangerous way. 

I mean, to me, this is the West's greatest problem: spiritual decay that comes from lack of connection. Obviously, there are benefits to technology. We have cures to diseases that we would otherwise die from. The internet makes the world easier, gives you access to things, including reading and information that you otherwise, etc. etc. There are a lot of benefits. But for me, one of the things I think I've learned is that the only real law of the universe is balance, by which I mean for everything that you drive a benefit, there's an equal cost, at least, that offsets it and keeps it in balance. Whatever: fame, wealth, career, success, it all comes with a cost. I definitely think that's the case of technology, and Ted Kaczynski was one of the first people to lay out this case in the way he laid it out. So even though he was a terrorist, even though he killed people, a lot of people began to think, you know what? I think there's a lot of validity here. 

You might ask why he goes to the scene to kill people? He had an academic pedigree. He probably could have gotten this published. I don't really know. I haven't paid much attention lately to this whole episode, so I forgot what the rationale was for that. But in any event, maybe he was also a little imbalanced himself. That probably was true. But, sometimes, being mentally imbalanced or at least mentally alienated, in a way, is necessary to produce insights. Even going back to that last question we talked about, you remove yourself from a certain society or a sector of society, it gives you a much greater clarity of thought because you're no longer connected to it or in it, and you can see it much clearly. I'm sure that's what happens if you just remove yourself completely. 

One of the things the question asked about is left-wing politics. And the person who just asked this question, I'm on the political left, but a lot of his critiques of what left-wings politics is about and the flaws in it, I must admit have validity. And basically, what Ted Kaczynski's warning was, and this definitely proved prophetic, was that the idea would be to make this system of technology and the capitalism that emerged from it invulnerable, so nobody blamed it, nobody wants to undermine it, nobody wants to subvert it, no matter what it's doing to us we're all propagandized to revere it to believe it's all good to believe it's invulnerable, to believe that we benefit from it. And he said one of the ways that that's going to succeed is that people are going to be given kind of culture war fights or social justice causes, which are going to make them feel like they're doing something subversive or radical, when in reality nothing that they're doing is a threat remotely to any real power center.

 Compact Magazine, which is I think a really interesting magazine, it kind of explores the intersection between left and right populism had an article on June 16, 2023, which I really recommend. The headline of it was: “Ted Kaczynski Anti-Left Leftist.” 

Obviously, this vision he's presenting in some ways is left-wing. It's a denunciation of capitalism and its excesses, the Industrial Revolution, and technology, that has a left-wing ethos for sure, but he was also scornful of modern-day, leftist political expression. 

A week or two ago, Ryan Grim as on our show and we were talking about the kind of fraudulent branding of Bari Weiss and The Free Press. There was supposedly a heterodox and dissident when, in reality, it really grew from objecting to a lot of the excesses of the woke movement. And Ryan basically said, if you're talking about kids with blue hair or whatever color hair someone has, or if they're trans or not or whatever, you're not talking about anything that is about the real structure and dissemination of power. It's like catnip. They're happy to have you fight about racism, feminism, yeah, they love racism. They love feminism. Remember the CIA did that whole video, super woke video? They centered like a, what was she? She was, I think, a non-binary Latina who had neurodivergence. And she was just like, “I stand proud and tall and occupy space unapologetically” as a Latino non-binary immigrant, whatever. They're so happy to have that. “Hey, look at our Black generals. We're going to celebrate our Black military officials. We're the Pentagon. Hey, with the FBI, look at all our cool badass women agents or fighter pilots. Look, they're women now.” It's like, “Oh, wow, that's so awesome. We've done so much to change society.” It's that famous cartoon where a Muslim family in Yemen are looking up at the sky and kind of smiling and saying, “I hear the neck bomb is going to be sent, is going to be dropped by a woman pilot.” 

It's just like, here's Hillary Clinton. She's so radical and such a wild departure from everything before, because she's going to be the first female president when there's like nobody more representative of status quo politics than she. So, you vote for her. You feel like you're doing something really like a big blow against the power center and the patriarchy, because now there's a woman and you put her in office and she's going to be the best possible protector of status-quo prerogatives and power centers everywhere, because she presents this illusion that you've done something historic or subversive, when in reality you're just working as hard as you can to entrench the status quo that you think you're working against. 

Ted Kaczynski was incredibly prescient about that as well. There's a lot more to him than what I've gone over. There's a lot to the essay. I just can't do that justice in the time we have, even though I took another hour. 

I did want to give my thoughts on it, but I also highly encourage you to go find the essay, even just start with the essay and I think you'll be amazed if you just sit down and read it, forget about he's the Unabomber, all that. Just read it, and remember it was written in the early to mid-1990s, and so even if some of it seems more familiar now, at the time it was very prescient, but also the way he described it, the historical framework he employed to shed light on how it works, that it's not just some brand new thing, it's gone back, basically traced it back to the Industrial Revolution. There are not very many better ways to spend your time in terms of your brain and your critical thinking, then to go read that essay. 

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All right, here's a few questions on Gaza. 

First from @CatRika:

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@Lightwins2028:

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It actually is incredible that I come here and sit here every night and do this show more or less every night 500 times. I will accept that as well and agree that it is kind of incredible.

And then from @johnmccray:

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I will confess that what we've seen in Gaza over the last 20 months is not just some horrific tragedy or even war on the other side of the world; it is a genocide that involves some of the most twisted cruelty and sadism I have ever witnessed in my life –  obviously, I wasn't alive in World War II, which is why I say ‘in my lifetime.’ However, when you announce that you're blocking all food from entering an enclave that you fully surround and control – and yes, there's a small border with Egypt and Gaza, but the Israeli military is on the other side of that, controlling egress and ingress into it and out of it (besides, the Egyptian dictator is U.S. supported and always has been for decades because he's there to take marching orders from the U.S. regarding Israel).

When you take this concentrated open-air prison enclave, where people can't leave, can't come in, you ban the media from coming in, and you announce to the world you're putting a blockade on any food from entering it, and you knowingly starve them to death, you knowingly blockade food from entering on top of what they're already experiencing – endless bombing, people burning alive in their churches, in their tents, every hospital, every school, all of civilian life being destroyed… The doctors who are there don't have basic medicines. They don't have antibiotics, they don't have feeding formula for babies, they don't have painkillers or anesthesia for the children who come in with their limbs blown off – just the absolute, worst nightmares that human beings could possibly endure for a sustained period, and on top of that, you start starving them to death and then, instead of letting food distribution in from the actual organizations that are experienced in it and actually want to feed the people, you create some new entity that you control – American military contractors that are, for profit, doing the bidding of the IDF, purposely set up so that it barely gives out any food and then it's a death trap – so, you lure starving people in there and you murder them and massacre them regularly, daily… That is a new kind of evil. 

When you’re starving people to death and then saying, “Hey, here are some grains of flour, come here and get them,” and murdering them when they do, when you purposely set up the centers so they barely stay open for more than 15 minutes. People get noticed right before, and they have to trek miles, very dangerously, to get there. They're not allowed to stay there, waiting for the next time to open. They have to go back, and they're killed on the way there. So, they're faced with this Sophie's choice of either having to stay at home and watch their kids starve to death or knowing they risk their lives and their teenage son's lives to go there and try to get food, knowing that a lot of them are going to be murdered, that is a sick new kind of evil. 

And because of how ubiquitous cell phones are, we have to watch it, and we know it's been streamed live every day, throughout the world. We've all seen just the absolute most sickening, hideous human suffering imaginable, a level of sadism that's almost hard to fathom that people are capable of. And while some Israelis are protesting some more now about the end of this war, for the most part, the view of the Israelis has been, I don't care how many civilians we kill, I don't care how many babies are killed. The babies are terrorists. They'll grow up to be Hamas, so I don't care to kill them. 

These are evils that are difficult to endure, even if your work is journalism, even if you look at some of the most horrible things people are doing, you still have to report on them. Even for that, I mean, it's hard to fathom and express, and I know so many people, and I just thought about myself including in this, that you feel so impotent, so your rage is so purposeless, even though it's all-consuming, because the Trump administration doesn't care. It's filled with Israel fanatics, and it's going to support Israel until the very last Gazan is killed. Can you give them all the weapons, all the money, all the diplomatic cover? 

And then of course, the Israelis themselves are so deranged and fanatical that they don't care either. And short of having the world go in and militarily intervene against Israel or arming Hamas, which is not going to happen, there's not a lot you can do. There definitely has been serious measurable changes for the better in how Americans now look at Israel and look at the Israeli action in Gaza, how they look at American funding of Israel. That's not going away. That's a big, big problem for Israel. 

Once you open your eyes to that, you can't unsee it. And you have a lot of people, as we talked about in that first question, fueling it constantly. I hope I'm one of them. I certainly do what I can to do that. But that doesn't mean that any of that is going to stop this war. 

Even in Europe, and I really despise the Western European political elite and media class, they're utterly supportive of Israel. They are loyal to Israel, they arm Israel, fund them, not as much as the United States, but to a great degree. A lot of those historical reasons, guilt over World War II, which Israel expertly exploits – not that it's difficult to exploit the guilt and psychological fragility of Western Europeans, but they do a great job of it. 

So, you're starting to see things like Macron comes out and recognize a Palestinian state, not unimportant, but still a symbolic step. Keir Starmer, he's probably the most despicable politician from a character perspective, an utterly empty, vapid belief-free politician – he's despised in his own country, despised. – He didn't even go that far. He said, “We are going to recognize a Palestinian state unless Israel starts letting food in.” So, Palestinian statehood is not something they're entitled to. It's like a threat that you make to Israel that you're going to give them if the Israelis don't let food in. You see the Germans, who are always the worst for obvious psychological and historical reasons when it comes to standing up to Israel, sort of saying now, “We're going to cut off arms.” 

We'll see how long any of that lasts. The one group of people you do not want to put your faith and trust in to stand for a cause, to hold firm on beliefs, or convictions and values is Western European political elites. They're pathetic. Pathetic. Obviously, there are some exceptions, but as a class, they're nauseating and pathetic. 

I used to think the British elite class was the worst elite class on the planet. While I still think they are definitely in the running, I'm starting to actually think the Germans are more psychologically warped and sickening. I mean, the Germans were also fanatics about the war in Ukraine – fanatics. You put Germans in power, and they don't think about anything other than going to war with Russia. It's really a bizarre repetitive pattern. 

So, I don't want to pretend that there's some quick solution. I do give as much money as I can to them, you can find Palestinian aid and Gaza aid organizations. There's no shortage of verified GoFundMe accounts from people in Gaza telling their stories. And obviously you have to be a little careful not to give to fraudulent ones, but there are easy ways to verify those. Look for trustworthy people on Twitter who vouch for them, things like that. You can donate to that. Even like $50 at a time, whatever you're capable of, $10, $15. Everything is so high-priced in Gaza that sometimes even if they have food available, they can’t afford it. And I think it's also a good way of showing the people in Gaza that the world actually cares about their plight. 

Earlier today, I talked about how Marjorie Taylor Greene has become very outspoken about refusing to serve the agenda of AIPAC and that AIPAC is now on the march against her. They're going to do what they've done to all sorts of politicians which they are now doing to Thomas Massie as well: try to find some fraudulent, politician who lives in their district, who seems demographically appealing to that district, who has the same politics, except they're going to know that AIPAC paid for their political career, paid for the seat in Congress, and they're going to be supremely loyal. 

One of the worst examples – I mean, I can barely look at this person because of how pathetic and sad it is to watch him. They wanted to get Cori Bush out of Congress. If you're conservative and you dislike Cori Bush, AIPAC doesn't dislike her for any of the reasons that you dislike her. They only care about the fact that she's raised questions like, “Why are we sending so much money to Israel when my whole district is filled with people financially struggling, who don't have healthcare, don't have access to education, have no public safety?” Why are we giving all this money to Israel? Why is AIPAC forcing us to do that?” And they were so determined to take Cori Bush out because of her Israel questioning that they found some utterly craven Black politician, nice liberal, nice Democrat, of course. You have to get a liberal, you have to be a Democrat, and probably have to be a Black politician. His name is Wesley Bell, and they paid $15 million – 15,000 million –for one Democratic primary seat in Congress in St. Louis, to replace Cori Bush with somebody exactly like her, except that he's an AIPAC loyalist. And you can just see him on social media and in speeches, standing up for Israel. You know exactly why $15 million was his price tag, and he knows if he wants to keep that seat, he's going to need AIPAC doing the same. And they're going to try to do the same with Thomas Massie. They're going to try to do the same with Marjorie Taylor Greene. 

They're not always successful. They've tried it many times with Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, even, to a smaller extent, AOC. They made some inroads, but for the most part, Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar are too popular in their Democratic primaries and their Democratic constituencies for that to work. 

In 2022, Ilhan Omar almost lost the Democratic primary. I think she won by a few points. So, she's not invulnerable. They never quite spent the money on her that they spent on people like Cori Bush or Jamaal Bowman. But they have a long history of doing this. And they're clearly doing it to Thomas Massie. If you look at the three top billionaires donating to AIPAC to remove Thomas Massie, they're all Jewish billionaires who are extremely loyal to Israel. 

That's the whole point of this effort that Donald Trump supports. One thing you can do is just look at who AIPAC is trying to remove from Congress and just donate to whoever they want to take out of Congress as a way to thwart them because even if you're a conservative and you see them doing it to some left-wing member of Congress that you don't like, it's not like the person they're going to replace that person with is going to be any more appealing to you. There's no difference, except that that person is going to be bought and paid to be an AIPAC agent, who is going to be devoted to Israel and never question Israel. That's the only difference. 

AIPAC's not taking Cori Bush out of Congress or Jamaal Bowman because they're too left-wing. The only thing they care about is if the person is devoted to Israel. The same with Tom Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene. If they're going to take out members of Congress as punishment for not being loyal enough to Israel, donate to the people they're trying to remove on both sides. If you're on the left, you're not going to agree with Marjorie Taylor Greene or Thomas Massie, obviously. But the people who are going to come in their place are not going to agree with you politically anymore. The only difference will be that those people will be fanatical Israel supporters, like many in the Republican Party, instead of being among the few to question them. So, that is another way I think you could work. 

I know this is thankless work. There's no immediate gratification, but it does work. Public opinion changes. It really does. And especially with independent media with a free internet, with the deconcentrating of power over the discourse no longer in the hands of a few tiny number of gigantic media corporations controlled by people who are all the same basic political outlook, with the same interests, but now huge gigantic people with big audiences who influence a lot of people completely removed from those circles and that dogma. That is also a big reason for optimism. And if you see the polling change in a pretty substantial way as you do on the Israel question and the Gaza question, keep contributing to that. You don't have to have a gigantic platform. 

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Last question, this is from @coldhotdog:

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All right. The U.S. is sanctioning Brazil, Brazilian officials, and also imposing tariffs on them, not for the reason that Trump has been imposing tariffs on other countries, mainly because he thinks there's unfair trading practices causing a trade deficit. The opposite is true. The United States has a significant trade surplus with Brazil. There's not a trade deficit. So, the tariffs are more – and it was kind of explicit – used as punishment against Brazil for their violation of free speech, their violation to due process, their persecution of political opponents. And obviously, that is not the U.S.'s real goal. 

I wrote an article about this in Folha, where I do reporting, and I'm a columnist in Brazil. And it basically said, Okay, I hope no one takes seriously when the U.S. government says we're upset about the infringements on free speech or the erosions of democracy. It was like a month before Trump announced sanctions on Brazil and tariffs on Brazil, that he went to the Persian Gulf region and heaped praise on Mohammed bin Salman and the leaders of Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, heralded them, hugged them, and not for the first time. While I think Brazil is very repressive and I think Moraes is an absolute tyrant, it's in a completely different universe than what happens in Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Qatar. It's not even close. 

So, any country that's heaping praise on and embracing, hugging and propping up the governments of Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Qatar, or the Egyptians, or the Jordanians, of the Bahrainis or whomever, the Philippines, Indonesia, obviously, is not a country that cares about repression inside other countries. Obviously.

The United States doesn't go around the world fighting wars or intervening in other countries because they care about repression. That's the pretext. They love dictators as long as dictators are pro-American. They only have a problem with dictatorial regimes if they defy America, like Cuba or Venezuela, Iran, Russia, China, and then you hear “Oh my god, we're the United States, we go and fight for democracies. That is why we have to protect Ukraine.” Even though, arguably, Ukraine has become as repressive as Russia. So, whatever drives the United States, it's not a love for democracy, it is not a contempt for an erosion of liberty, it is not a defense of free speech, obviously, I hope there's no one in my audience who believes that. So, when Trump says, “Oh, we're punishing Brazil because it's become repressive, it’s attacked the free speech,” it's obviously not the reason. 

Then the question that our Locals member is raising, which is a good one.

I don't support the U.S. embargo of Cuba which is now 65 years old. The idea of that was that we're going to change the government of Cuba and free the Cuban people. Obviously, it has not done that. The only thing it's done is make life in Cuba utterly miserable for the population. Same with Venezuela. Same with the sanctions on Iran. So, I don't think that's the role of the United States to go try to change other governments, even if they're pretending, they're changing them out of concern about their oppression when obviously that's not the real reason. 

The reason is they want to replace it with a regime that's more compliant to the United States. And obviously I don't think Trump is intervening in Brazil with punishments and the like because he's concerned in the abstract about free speech. I mean, aside from all the dictatorial regimes we embrace, there's also the attacks on free speech in the United States, which we've gone over many times, including last night, that the Trump administration is spearheading, that the Biden administration before that spearheaded. 

So, the question then becomes, well, what is the real reason? And I want to say, while I view Alexandre de Moraes as a serious menace, as one of the most tyrannically minded people on the planet, even if he's not, say, as powerful or dictatorial as Mohammed bin Salman, just because Brazil is not that kind of society that permits that level of overt, absolute, autocratic tyranny, the way a lot of other countries do that we support prop up, I do think he's a genuine evil figure. Obviously, one of the reasons I talk about it is because I live here. My family is Brazilian. My kids are Brazilian. So, it's something I care about for that reason. And of course, I think the reason why Trump is doing it is because it's not actually a left-wing government in Brazil. Lula is the president. And he was a leftist in his earlier life. He was a labor leader, but he ran for president three times as a leftist, lost. And then finally, in 2002, he was sick of losing. And he wrote this famous letter called Letter to the Brazilian People, where he basically said, “I understand that if I want to be president, I have to moderate. I have to get along with financial centers. This is important for prosperity.” He basically promised not to be a fallaway left-wing dogma to be much more moderate. And then to prove it, he chose a billionaire banker as his vice president, to make clear to financial markets, banks, big corporations inside Brazil that he wasn't going to be a threat. 

They're not leftist at all. But I'm sure in Trump's mind, in the eyes of Marco Rubio, the people who are influencing Trump, he sees a little like basically a communist regime, like a left-wing regime, like from the Cold War, even though it's not remotely that. And I'm not suggesting they're conservative or right-wing. They're not. But they're not communists or even socialists. And part of what Trump's doing is he just looks at Lula and the Brazilian government as an enemy and is convinced, okay, they're our enemy. Let's punish them. If I had to find a justification – I'm not saying I support it, I'm not saying I justify it – but if I had to find a justification, I would say that the real only justification for any of this is the fact that Moraes and the Supreme Court have been now targeting not just America's social media companies. 

So, this is reaching into the United States threatening the free speech rights of American citizens or people legally residing in the United States, attacking and threatening and trying to bully American social media companies. And that is, I believe, an invasion of American sovereignty and an attack on the rights of American citizens. I do think the government, the U.S. government, is duty-bound to draw a very firm line and say, “No, you're not going to cross that line. And if you cross that, we're going to take action against you.” That's the only justification I can think of. 

So, I'm not defending the Magnitsky Act sanctions against Moraes, or even the punitive tariffs against Brazil. I've basically been arguing that if there's anyone who truly is tyrannical in his mindset, who's just absolutely, like, mentally unstable and just an authoritarian tyrant with no limits at all, who's been just vindictive and drunk on his power, it is Alexandre de Moraes. And I do think there's this one justification for the U.S. to cite, to justify taking retaliatory and retributive action against Brazil. 

Obviously, Trump likes Bolsonaro. He strongly identifies with any claims that a politician is being victimized by politicized lawfare because Trump believes as do I, that he himself was the victim of that and he sees when he looks at Bolsonaro a very similar thing happening to Bolsonaro, and I think he feels personally angry by that. So, I think there's some complex motives as well, but other than what I just articulated, I'm not defending the U.S.’s use of sanctions, the exploitation of the dollars in reserve currency to punish the economies of other countries because we don't like what they're doing internally. It's all obviously a fraud and a pretext to say, we're doing it because we care about free speech or due process or whatever. But I think there is a foundation to it, not a very strong one, but a foundation to it that I do think is legitimate. And you know what? I guess, just looking at it from a less principled perspective, I do think Alexandre de Moraes is a completely out-of-control monster. And everyone in Brazil is too scared to stand up to him or too supportive of the fact that he's imprisoning and exiling and silencing Bolsonaro supporters, that there is nobody in Brazil that's capable of stopping him or willing to do so. And the only thing that has really undermined and disrupted him is what Trump just did and now is threatening to do even more with even more invasive sanctions against his wife, against other officials in Brazil. And that is something they have to take very seriously and are taking very seriously. And it's the first time there's been real limits put on it. 

So, from a very kind of instrumentalized, results-based perspective, I confess that I'm happy about where that is leading, even if I do have genuine, really real concerns about the use of American arms and weaponry to do this.

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The Pro-Israel Meltdown Over Mahmoud Khalil's NYT Interview: When is Violence Inevitable?; Why is FIRE Suing Marco Rubio: With 1A Lawyer Conor Fitzpatrick
System Update #499

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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The case of Mahmoud Khalil made national headlines – even international headlines – because he was the very first student who was snatched either off the street or out of his apartment by ICE agents under the Trump administration's brand new policy of expelling Israel critics, who they deem supportive of Hamas, which is basically anyone who criticizes Israel whether they're PhD students on green cards or anything else. 

On June 20, a federal judge ordered Khalil, who is a green card holder, released from ICE detention facilities pending the deportation proceedings on the grounds that he had never been arrested, let alone convicted of anything, and presents no threat to anyone or to the public in general. That release has enabled Khalil to make rounds giving interviews to various outlets, and he gave one last week to the New York Times' columnist and podcast host, Ezra Klein. One excerpt of Khalil's interview went viral, largely due to Israel supporters, of course, who claimed he was apologizing for, if not actively supporting, Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel. We'll examine his comments to see if he did say that, but also to examine the important questions raised about who has the right to use violence and when, who is a terrorist or who is a freedom fighter, and whether anything Khalil said remotely poses a danger to the United States. 

Our guest was Conor Fitzpatrick, a lawyer from FIRE.org, the free speech group the ACLU once was: a group of lawyers and activists passionately devoted to defending free speech against any and all attacks on it, regardless of whether the censorship target is on the right, the left, or anything in between. FIRE announced this week that it was suing Marco Rubio and the U.S. State Department under the First Amendment, arguing that the government has the right to deport foreign nationals, but not to do so as punishment for their political expression. 

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Foto preta e branca de rosto de homem visto de pertoO conteúdo gerado por IA pode estar incorreto.

We have covered the case of Mahmoud Khalil many times on this show. He was the sort of test case, the canary in the coal mine, showing that the Trump administration intended not to deport all foreign students or most foreign students or just foreign students who expressed a political opinion and engaged in political activism. That's not the Trump Administration's policy at all. They don't even have a policy of deporting foreign students on U.S. soil for criticizing the United States. What they do have is a policy of deporting foreign students in the United States or at American universities who criticize Israel or protest against that foreign country. 

Mahmoud Khalil was detained in his apartment, where he lives with his American wife. She was eight months pregnant; their newborn infant was born. And she's an American citizen. His newborn infant is an American Citizen. And he's a green card on the path to American citizenship. 

Since then, there have been many other cases of students being snatched off the street by plainclothes ICE agents and unmarked cars, including a Tufts PhD student, Rumeysa Ozturk, who the Trump administration admits, did nothing other than co-author an op-ed in the Tuft's student newspaper, where she called on the administration, along with three other students who were co-authors, to implement the student Senate's decision that the administration should divest from Israel. That's all she did. Nothing against Jews, nothing in favor of Hamas, any of that. She just criticized Israel and urged divestment because the student senate had voted for it. It was essentially saying abide. She, too, was snatched off the street, put in ICE detention, and now has been released. And there have been many other cases since. 

In the case of Mahmoud Khalil, the federal court said you can continue the deportation proceeding, but there's no basis or justification for keeping him in a detention prison while all of this proceeds. If you win the deportation process, you can obviously deport him, but there's no reason why he should rot in jail rather than being at home with his wife and child while this process proceeds, because he's never done anything remotely to suggest that he's a threat to anybody. He was never arrested as part of the student protest or any other time in his life, never convicted of a crime, never the subject of a complaint with the police. 

And so, he's now out and he's giving interviews, as is his right. He's given several interviews. One of them was for The New York Times columnist and podcast host, Ezra Klein

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