Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Writing • Culture
Does Endless Spending in Ukraine Cause Deprivations at Home?
Video Transcript: System Update #68
April 15, 2023
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As the war in Ukraine grinds on into its second year with Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy now pledging his full-scale support for President Biden's proxy war and new leaked documents warning the war will likely be fought through 2023 and beyond, we want to pull back the lens a bit on this war and examine an often overlooked component of U.S. involvement, namely, what is the impact on the lives of American citizens from what appears to be an endless commitment of their resources, their money, to fuel this proxy war, $100 billion and counting. We've often covered the geopolitical questions of the war as well as the dangers it poses. Little things like the warning from President Biden himself that his war policies have brought the world closer to nuclear Armageddon than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. But here, supporters of the U.S. role in Ukraine tell it Americans pay no price at all for this massive flow of money from the U.S. Treasury into the coffers of U.S. weapons manufacturers, the intelligence community, and into the foggy precincts of Ukraine, which just so happens to be by far the most corrupt country in Europe. 

Can America's commitment to militarism and endless war abroad be separated from the degradation of the lives of Americans at home? Or, as Martin Luther King and so many others throughout the years have insisted, is America's militarism inextricably intertwined with – indeed a key cause of – the visible decline in the quality of life for most Americans? We'll examine all aspects of this critical question.

Then, the fallout from the leak of top-secret documents, which we covered in-depth on last night's show, continues but now the corporate media, led by The New York Times, is exploiting the leak to insist that somehow this shows that we need more censorship of the Internet. We'll show you how they're doing that. 

For now, welcome to a new episode of System Update, starting right now. 


One year ago today, there was almost no issue that the media and Washington were discussing other than the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Our media discourse was subsumed with debates and arguments over what the U.S. role should be, and a consensus quickly emerged, which was that the United States was on Ukraine's side, had viewed the Russian invasion of Ukraine as an immoral act, as an act of aggression, but that the role the United States played in that war would necessarily be limited by a whole variety of constraints, including, first and foremost, the desire to avoid any kind of direct confrontation with Russia – the world's largest nuclear stockpile is controlled by Moscow – but also by the geopolitical needs of the United States and the financial needs of the United States not to get sucked back into an endless war only six months or so after we finally got out of the 20-year war in Afghanistan. All sorts of promises were made that the United States would respect a whole variety of limits and then the Biden administration proceeded to blow past one after the next, after the next, and far from a limited role. A year later, the United States has already authorized $100 billion for fueling this proxy war in Ukraine with no end in sight. The leaked documents that we discussed on last night's show warned that this war will almost certainly extend all the way through 2023 and beyond, which means there's at least another year or longer to go and there's no suggestion that the U.S. is going to in any way constrain what it continues to spend on this war. Quite the contrary. Last night we showed you that Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who pretended before the midterms to offer Americans an alternative by saying Joe Biden gives in a blank check for Zelenskyy, while I, Kevin McCarthy, don't. And if you elect me and the Republicans to control the House, we will put a stop to this blank check. And he did that because he saw polling data that showed that Americans increasingly are becoming resistant and reluctant about the role the United States is playing in that war, particularly the flow of money and resources with no end to Kyiv, where it's just sort of disappearing with no audit, no oversight, and most of all, no commitment as to when it might stop. And yet, McCarthy yesterday basically admitted that when he said that he really did mean it. His close friend, Michael McCaul, who's the chairman of the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said that Kevin McCarthy always supported Joe Biden's policies in Ukraine and believes that we, meaning the United States, have to fight and win that war to the very end. So, at this point, the establishment wings of all parties, as usual, are completely united, which means that it's inconceivable that the United States will, at any point in the near future or the mid-term future, start to rein in the amount of money it's giving to Ukraine – and by giving to Ukraine, I mean giving to Raytheon and other arms manufacturers, giving to the CIA and giving to President Zelenskyy and his band of merry men who are ruling Ukraine. 

So, there's no alternative. There's nothing you can do in terms of voting. You might have thought that if you voted Republican in the 2022 election, it meant that you were going to get more constraints on the war in Ukraine but, lo and behold, Kevin McCarthy now acknowledges that he never really meant that, and he supports Joe Biden in full. So, it's time to ask the question, because you may notice that the war in Ukraine is almost never discussed or debated anymore. It's at best an ancillary issue. It's what usually happens when a huge amount of attention, public attention, is devoted to a new event. The government makes all kinds of claims when people aren’t looking. And then when they go back to their lives and start paying attention, the government just runs wild and makes what was supposed to be a temporary or controversial policy permanent and that means that the United States basically has a free hand – the CIA, the Biden White House – to spend all your resources, as much as it wants, generating profit for a tiny sliver of people both in Washington and Kyiv. 

And so, we want to ask the question, not so much what the geopolitical implications of this war are – which is what we typically spend our time focusing on - but instead, what is the actual cost for American citizens, not just the financial cost, but the cost in quality of life and standard of living? And what prompted this question was that last night we recorded an interview with the former professor at DePaul University, Norman Finkelstein, who was denied tenure as a result of a very ugly battle in 2007 waged against him by Alan Dershowitz, primarily due to Dershowitz’s contempt for Norman Finkelstein’s criticisms of Israel. And he's kind of become one of these people who are not metaphorically canceled, but completely destroyed. He's unemployable. He barely appears in media outlets. And so, we thought about doing a series because everybody, when they launch a show, always says we're going to air views and voices that aren't available elsewhere. And it's well-intentioned. Most people mean it when they say it, but then they end up airing voices that are in full accord with the program that is available in many other places, and the people who are genuinely excluded from mainstream discourse, even though they might have a lot to say, are typically ignored. We put Professor Finkelstein on our show about a month ago or six weeks ago when we interviewed law professor Amy Wax, at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, who has her tenure threatened because of views that she defends that are quite radical about race particularly and about related issues. And we put Professor Finkelstein on that show to give his views on academic freedom and what the limits might be, given that he too lost his job in academia due to his views almost 15 years ago now. 

As part of that interview, we did a wide-ranging interview with Professor Finkelstein, not just about academic freedom, but about a variety of other issues. We were interrupted by time constraints. So last night we recorded the second part of the interview, which we intend to air this week, and I asked him about his view on Ukraine, and he said something and described it in a way that is very unusual to hear, and it's up to provoke my desire to spend this evening examining this question. This is what he said as part of the as-of-yet-unaired interview: 

 

(Video)

 

Professor Finkelstein: I don't expect everybody to agree with me, with my opinions on Ukraine. The problem is there's no questioning at all. Just the other day, I recently reached another carriage. I tried to contact Medicare. It's impossible to contact them on the phone. It's absolutely impossible. I challenge anybody to dispute me on that point. Impossible. I finally go down to the Social Security Agency, I'm talking to one of the agents, and she said that “You call Medicare.” I said it was impossible. I said, could you imagine? We're in the 21st century. We have a dozen different forms of communication. We have telephone. We have now, we have fax, we have social media. You can’t contact a government agency. I said to myself, it nauseates me – $100 billion for Ukraine, $100 billion for Ukraine, and it can’t provide a phone service for senior citizens. 

 

People might quibble with that anecdote, especially if you're somebody who's more well-versed on the Internet. I think it's worth remembering that a lot of senior citizens spent most of their life without the Internet even in existence. So, particularly older people are not as adept as younger people are when it comes to performing functions online, but there's certainly no denying his central point, which is that services and quality of life in the United States have degraded and are on the decline in multiple ways over the last, let's say, decade or so. Therefore, I do think it's not just a valid question, but one that ordinary people would instantly ask, which is why, when the government can't do this for me, or why when the country has deprived me of this opportunity, for example, young people can't move out of their parents’ home until they're 30 or beyond in record numbers; couples who are raising young children are often required – not just when they want, but even if they don't – both, to work full time, then pay somebody to raise their children or care for their children during the day. All things that never were part of the American way of life, certainly for the middle class, are almost disappearing. And so, of course, it's a very reasonable and rational question to ask. Why are we sending $100 billion to Ukraine when we can't even clean up a chemical explosion in East Palestine because our government has no resources or can't get organized enough? 

I think a lot of times media outlets don't ask that question because their lives are fine. They come from wealthy families; they went to the best schools. Certainly, people in Washington are overwhelmingly wealthy. Just this last week, I noted that Dianne Feinstein, the five-term senator from the state of California, just happened to have sold one of her vacation homes for $25.5 million, in Aspen, which she and her husband used to entertain foreign policy elites over the past two decades or so. Basically, they are run not just by an oligarchy, but by a gerontocracy, just people in their eighties and nineties who are extremely rich and that's who dominates media as well. People who will come from wealthy families and go to East Coast schools are private schools and colleges that are very prestigious. So don't worry about things like this and they don't think this way. But I think what you heard from Norman Finkelstein is the way that a lot of people speak. And when Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, of Georgia, who, whatever you think of her, is more like a kind of an ordinary person in Congress than most people in Congress, because she's been a politician for about 6 seconds. She's done well in business – she's not poor by any stretch of the imagination but she's somebody who has lived in her Georgia district for many years and was not a professional politician. And so, when she stands up in Congress, she often says things that people mock because it sounds like what Norman Finkelstein said. 

So here is Marjorie Taylor Greene the last time Congress was asked to vote on whether we want to play this role that we're playing in the war in Ukraine, which was last May, almost nine months ago, when Congress took Joe Biden's request for $33 billion, arbitrarily increased it to $40 billion, and then overwhelmingly approved it with the yes vote coming from every single Democrat in Congress, from AOC and Bernie Sanders and the Squad to the House Progressive Caucus and the only no votes were about 60 House Republicans, including Marjorie Taylor Greene and about 10 or 11, including Josh Hawley and Mike Lee in the Senate. All Republicans voted out. The only no votes came from Republicans. But overwhelmingly, the establishment wings of both parties united as they always do, to support it. And when Marjorie Taylor Greene rose in the house to explain why she was voting no, here's what she said. 

 

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene: Thank you. I rise in opposition to the Ukrainian supplemental bill: $40 billion. But there's no baby formula for American mothers and babies. An unknown amount of money to the CIA in the Ukraine supplemental bill. But there's no formula for American babies and mothers. $54 million in COVID spending in Ukraine. But there's no formula for American babies and mothers. $900 million for nonprofit organizations in Ukraine. But there's no formula for American babies and mothers. $8.7 billion for economic support and funding in Ukraine. But there's no formula for American mothers and babies. 

 

And so, she chose the lack of formula for women who are facing a supply chain crisis, but also a resource crisis and not being able to have the government help them obtain baby formula. And she was asking, I think, quite reasonably, why are we sending $100 billion to Ukraine when mothers in the United States, American women don't have access to baby formula? Just like Norman Finkelstein said: “Why, if I can't even have public service for the Medicare that I earned as a senior, are we spending $100 billion in Ukraine by sending $100 billion to Zelenskyy, the CIA and Raytheon?” All very good questions. And you can pick any number of metrics that show the decline in the quality of life for American citizens who could definitely use that $100 billion in all sorts of ways. 

From KFF Health News this is a report from March of last year entitled “Desperate for Cash: Programs for People with Disabilities Still Not Seeing Federal Funds.” We have a ton of disabled and special needs people in the United States. They can't work. They're certified as disabled. They cannot get the minimum payments from the government to have a minimum quality of life because the government can't get money to them – while it sends $100 billion to Kyiv. 

From the CDC in August of last year, the headline – from our own government –“Life Expectancy in the U.S. Dropped for the Second Year in a Row in 2021.” They have charts here that say: 

Life expectancy at birth in the United States declined nearly a year from 2020 to 2021, according to new provisional data from the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).

 

That decline – 77.0 to 76.1 years – took the U.S. life expectancy at birth to its lowest level since 1996. The 0.9-year drop in life expectancy in 2021, along with a 1.8-year drop in 2020, was the biggest two-year decline in life expectancy since 1921-1923. 

 

Life expectancy at birth for women in the United States dropped 0.8 years from 79.9 years in 2020 to 79.1 in 2021, while life expectancy for men dropped one full year, from 74.2 years in 2020 to 73.2 in 2021. The report shows the disparity in life expectancy between men and women grew in 2021 from 5.7 years in 2020 to 5.9 years in 2021. From 2000 to 2010, this disparity had narrowed to 4.8 years, but gradually increased from 2010 to 2019 and is now the largest gap since 1996 (Center for Disease Control. August 31, 2022). 



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Week in Review: Lee Fang and Leighton Woodhouse on Ukraine War and NYT Piece Revealing Tensions within Trump Admin; PLUS: Lee Fang Takes Audience Questions on DOGE and Big Tech
System Update #420

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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This is Lee Fang, journalist and guest host of System Update. I'm filling in for Glenn, who is out this week. It's been fantastic to be on the show the last few days. 

This episode, we'll be doing a few things. First, we'll be talking to Leighton Woodhouse. He's an Oakland-based journalist, investigative reporter and filmmaker. We collaborate on our Substacks for a kind of weekly review of politics, both national and local. We'll be talking about the news of last week and getting into it. 

Later, I'll be getting to your questions. Glenn typically does a Friday Mailbag. I'll be responding to your questions, comments and concerns, discussing some of what we've reported this week. 

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Lee Fang: Hey, Leighton. Welcome to System Update. We often do a podcast together, a video kind of thing, looking at the news, but I'm taking over System Update this week because the esteemed host, Glenn Greenwald, is off somewhere, God knows where, celebrating his birthday. I think he's like 80 or 90 years old now. I'm not sure. But in any case, since he’s gone, it makes sense for us to take over and talk about the news as we usually do. 

It's been both like a chaotic week and then also like maybe less of a newsy week compared to the other weeks. I forgot this chaos news cycle from the first administration. It just got normal eventually. And now it kind of shook me because we're back to the same old thing where everyone's like reading between the tea leaves, trying to understand [  ] what the Truth Social or Twitter posts actually mean. Is this five-dimensional chess or just Trump saw something on Fox News and is reacting to it? We're back to that. 

Leighton Woodhouse: Yeah, I love it. I mean, I don't love it for the country, but I love it for just my day-to-day entertainment. It's just so much more fun than following the Biden administration. I know we'll talk about this later, but there's no better example than the Zelenskyy summit meeting where you're just seeing this stuff out in real time and just on the table in front of you. There's no hiding it. It's amazing. 

Lee Fang: Yeah, and actually that's another kind of déjà vu from the first administration where it's like, okay, you looked at all the instant reactions from normie reporters, from liberals, from kind of conventional media types. It's like, ‘Oh, how dare they?” They ambushed Zelenskyy. This was a trap because they're all Russian moles. This was all a fake press conference to humiliate Zelenskyy because they want to do whatever Putin wants. 

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UK Pressures Apple to Break Encryption in Major Privacy Clash; How Dems Can Win Back the Working Class, with Former Bernie Sanders Campaign Manager Faiz Shakir
System Update #419

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Today on System Update, we look at a variety of issues. We’re talking to Sean Vitka about the brewing fight between Apple and the British government. The British government – in order to comply with some of its new surveillance laws – has demanded that Apple break its very strong end-to-end encryption, changing Apple products really globally by providing a back door for the government. This is a demand that has been made by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in the past. Now the British government is making it. We talk a little bit about what this means for users, what this means for encryption, and where the Trump administration stands on these issues. 

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Lee Fang Reacts to Trump's Speech to Congress; Will DOGE Tackle Military Waste?
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Hey, this is Lee Fang. I'm your host of System Update, coming to you live from a very foggy San Francisco. Glenn Greenwald is out this week. 

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Last night, Trump gave his fifth State of the Union address. The president doubled down on tariffs, called for an end to the war in Ukraine, and touted his many executive orders, especially on DEI. And yes, there were moments of theatrics between Trump and the Democrats in the audience. 

But Trump did something special that I think deserves greater scrutiny. Unlike recent administrations, including his own, he dedicated a big part of his speech to his quest to root out wasteful spending. Let's watch a clip: 

Video. Donald Trump, Joint Address to Congress. March 4, 2025.

This is an important topic and one that really cuts across ideological and partisan lines. Or at least it should. Corruption is a soul-sucking force not only because it bloats government debt and deficits. We all suffer from waste – for every fraudulent contract, for every misallocated dollar, that's a loss of resources that could have been spent making America more educated, more secure, healthy, and prepared for the future. It's also a problem that fuels alienation. We lose faith in our elected officials, and our entire system of governance, when we can't count on basic accountability for how our tax dollars are spent. 

Where I live, in San Francisco, the government has one of the largest per capita local budgets in the world, yet problems never seem to go away, no matter how much money gets spent, housing gets more expensive, there are rampant overdose deaths, a growing homeless population despite the highest level of spending on homeless outreach programs in the nation, out of control property crime, empty storefronts, and programs that seem like a parody of municipal waste. 

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$1.7 million spent building a single toilet in Noe Valley? (The New York Times. January 24, 2024) $2 billion on a small expansion of the Muni subway, which was over budget, which blew through deadlines, and is now shutting down just after opening because of faulty construction? And the more the city spends, the more questions are raised as NGO and private contractors keep getting busted with their hands in the cookie jar – we've had repeated FBI raids of city workers and city contractors, scandal after scandal about missing funds and kickback schemes. The problems seem endless and given that so many Democratic leaders – from Nancy Pelosi to Kamala Harris to Gavin Newsom – got their political start in this city, it’s no wonder that many Americans question whether these Californians are fit to lead. (The San Francisco Standard. April 12, 2024.)

But as bad as the problems of San Francisco have become, the city pales in comparison to the federal government. The Government Accountability Office estimated that between 2018 and 2022, taxpayers lost somewhere between $233 billion and $521 billion due to fraud. 

Much of that money was lost during the pandemic, when a gusher of nearly $2 trillion went out with little accountability. Both Democrats and Republicans are to blame for the lack of oversight. 

But this is not a phenomenon that is limited to the emergency actions taken around COVID-19, not even close. The most pernicious, systemic fraud can be found throughout the system, especially in health care and defense spending. 

President Donald Trump, to his credit, has made it a focal point of his administration. His new Department of Government Efficiency, also known as DOGE, helmed in part by Elon Musk, has rapidly deployed in agency after agency, slashing private contracts and cutting the workforce. In particular, he has moved to scale down the entire USAID budget. 

Like a lot of the Trump administration, it's a mix of good and bad, of bold action that no other administration would take, alongside reckless actions that could do real harm. In many cases, they're missing the window of opportunity to go after real waste embedded in our system and have instead cut self-funding agencies like the CFPB. 

First, let's talk a little bit about the good around USAID cuts. I've reported for years on USAID money going to groups that work to overthrow foreign governments, undermine democratic elections, and indeed, censor even Americans over bogus claims of "misinformation." Congressional Democrats have claimed that USAID simply, in the words of Senator Chris Murphy, "supports freedom fighters" all over the globe. 

That reality, however, is much murkier. USAID has funded the Zinc Network, an anti-disinformation contractor that has targeted reporter Max Blumenthal, politician Vivek Ramaswamy, and Congressman Andy Biggs. USAID also funded a pesticide industry public relations effort known as v-Fluence, which dug up dirt about American food journalists such as Michael Pollan and Mark Bittman. But most troubling, the foreign assistance agency has financed a network of groups in Ukraine that have spread unsubstantiated claims that Americans in favor of peace are part of a dangerous misinformation network tied to the Kremlin. 

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The controversial agency provides backdoor ways for the American government to finance propaganda against American citizens. 

In Ukraine, USAID, through its contractor Internews, supports a network of social media-focused news outlets, including the New Voice of Ukraine, VoxUkraine, Detector Media, and the Institute of Mass Information. 

These news outlets have produced a series of videos and reports targeting economist Jeffrey Sachs, commentator Tucker Carlson, journalist Glenn Greenwald, and Professor John Mearsheimer, as figures within a "network of Russian propaganda".

(Lee Fang. Substack. February 4, 2025.)

In other words, American taxpayers have been funding a defamatory smear campaign against other American citizens, all in order to build out support for another forever war. 

But let's not forget, USAID also helps administer global health programs which have been widely touted for saving millions of lives. USAID helps administer PEPFAR, a program to distribute HIV AIDS medications, and the agency also funds the distribution of medicine and preventative care for malaria, polio, tuberculosis, and a variety of programs for maternal and child health care in developing countries. 

There's a pause in these programs as the administration reviews them, but it seems clear that there's a real risk that they may be cut. These programs might not be perfect, but they've generally impacted the world in profound and positive ways. Given how much other waste, fraud and abuse exists in our system, these global health programs should be a low priority, if not even a not a priority at all, when it comes to cuts. 

Where should we be cutting? To prepare the segment, I just looked back at my own reporting over the last decade. I've written for years about Pentagon waste that is far beyond the dollar figure for any silly sounding science grant or health program that was discussed last night at the State of the Union. 

In 2015, a military blimp broke free from its harness in suburban Maryland and dragged a cable through homes, causing destruction and property damage. Where did this thing come from? 

Video. WMAR-2 News. November 4, 2015

The project was called JLENS, or "Joint Land Attack Cruise Missile Defense Elevated Netted Sensor System." Produced by Raytheon at nearly $3 billion cost to the Army, the project was intended to defend against cruise missiles. Theoretically, it was supposed to track objects over an area the size of Texas. But these blimps kept getting destroyed in weather events and faced chronic technical issues. Frankly, they didn't seem to serve any useful purpose. Finally, former Joint Chief of Staff James Cartwright rescued the program, and had it deployed to Afghanistan, where it again failed to provide any real protection to U.S. troops. But Cartwright, after securing the deal, joined Raytheon's board of directors, a job that paid him nearly $900,000 a year. Inevitably JLENS ended up in Maryland, where it eventually untethered and caused random destruction. 

This phenomenon is actually not unique. There are dozens of failed missile defense and radar systems that get re-funded year after year by Congress under the influence of defense lobbyists and the allure for politicians and staff to one day become defense lobbyists. 

Let's take a look at a few quick examples. 

Ground-Based Missile Defense System Has Serious Flaws, Experts Say

 

Despite billions of dollars invested in technology development, Coyle said, the basic architectures of both anti-missile systems “are in doubt because so many parts don’t work, don’t exist, or aren’t achievable.” (AAAS. June 19, 2013)

The government has spent $40 billion on the Ground-based Midcourse Defense system, managed by Raytheon and Boeing. That program, which was carefully with was carefully scripted with conditions in which the system operators knew the exact location, trajectory, speed, and dimensions of test missiles, even under those conditions, the GMD intercept systems failed to consistently produce any interceptions. 

There's the Kinetic Energy Interceptor, a project from North of Grumman in Raytheon, that also failed missile interception systems and was canceled after Navy officials found multiple problems, including its limited range. That program costs $1.7 billion. (Bloomberg. August 2, 2011.)

Or what about "The Multi-Object Kill Vehicle," developed by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin at a cost of $700 million. This program was canceled after military officials found that the anti-missile program faced insurmountable technical challenges. 

Or finally, the Sea-Based X-Band Radar, a floating radar designed to detect enemy missile launches, which failed after tests found that the radar had a limited field of vision and was highly vulnerable to corrosion at sea. The program, managed by Boeing and Raytheon, cost $2.2 billion. 

The Pentagon’s $10-billion bet gone bad Los Angeles Times

Trying to fashion a shield against a sneak missile attack, military planners gambled on costly projects that flopped, leaving a hole in U.S. homeland defense.

(Los Angeles Times. April 5, 2025.)

I could go on and on, just on the failed missile defense and radar systems. And I could spend another hour talking about faulty logistics systems, corrosive and fraudulent work on submarines that leave them completely ineffective and inoperable, billions of dollars of waste on MRAPs and tanks and the list keeps going on and on. Where's the watchdog? Who's keeping this accountable? 

There are a few champions in Congress – people like Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders, who consistently call out military waste, but they are in the minority. The defense industrial lobby largely keeps Congress and any administration, Democrat or Republican, completely subdued and subservient. 

We heard reports initially that DOGE was crossing the Potomac and planning to tackle military fraud and waste. But so far, we've only heard about canceled military DEI contracts. I have no problem cutting the DEI contracts. But let's be honest, that is small potatoes compared to the big fraudulent and wasteful contracts from the defense industrial base. 

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The Interview: Danielle Brian

Project on Government Oversight is a non-profit in Washington D.C. that investigates waste, fraud, and abuse. As a journalist, I've relied on POGO's investigations for a very long time. They've investigated Pentagon waste of all types, everything from the $500 hammer that went kind of viral back in the 1980s to more recent failed radar systems, the F-22, the F-35, a lot of issues around the Abrams tanks. They've also investigated other. Federal contracts, the waste, fraud and abuse that occurred during the pandemic and a lot of those multi-billion-dollar rescue packages. They've been around for 40 years doing really vital work and since the topic du jour in Washington is waste, fraud and abuse, I thought it would be great to talk to POGO today. 

Danielle Brian is the executive director of POGO. She's an award-winning journalist really doing cutting-edge work in this guard! 

Lee Fang:  Danielle, welcome to the program. 

Danielle Brian: Thanks so much, Lee. It's lovely to be here. 

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