Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Culture • Writing
SPECIAL EPISODE: 4-Year Anniversary of Julian Assange's Imprisonment: The Real Story and Latest Developments
Video Transcript: System Update #71
April 20, 2023
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Note: This is the transcript of a recent episode of System Update. Watch the full episode here, exclusively on Rumble:

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Exactly four years ago this week, British law enforcement agents marched into the Ecuadorean Embassy in London and arrested the publisher, journalist and WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, the person who has quite possibly published more major scoops than any journalist of his generation. Ever since Assange has been imprisoned in the high-security prison called His Majesty's Prison Belmarsh, a facility so repressive and severe that it has been used for dangerous terror suspects and the BBC, in 2004, called it Britain's Guantanamo Bay. Assange’s imprisonment continues to this very day, despite his never having been convicted of any crime other than a bail-jumping misdemeanor for which he long ago served his government sentence. Instead, he is now being held in that prison solely because the Biden administration is demanding that he be extradited to stand trial in the United States – a country of which he is not a citizen and which he has barely visited – on espionage charges in connection with the 2010 reporting that WikiLeaks did on U.S. war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. Despite the fact that Assange is a famous and deeply polarizing figure, the real and full story of Assange, his imprisonment, how we came to be in prison, and why is rarely told, is a complex story and one that unfolds over almost 13 years now. So we decided to devote tonight's episode to telling and documenting that story, in part because of its 4th anniversary, in part because there is now growing momentum to secure his release, and in part because of how he has been treated and maligned and abused sheds significant light on the leaker whom The New York Times and Washington Post this week helped the FBI capture and arrest 21-year-old Massachusetts National Guardsman Jack Teixeira, who's accused of disclosing a wide range of classified documents that shed considerable light on the reality of what the United States is doing in the war in Ukraine. 

There are obvious, important differences between the two cases, but what they both have in common is that unlike what appears almost daily in mainstream corporate outlets, namely, the CIA and the FBI giving authorized, propagandized leaks to those media outlets, they are both responsible for highly illuminating but unauthorized leaks of secret information, meaning information that embarrasses the U.S. Security State while informing the American people about their lies, deceit and corrupt conduct. Understanding what happened in Assange's case is very important in itself, but it also has added significance considering this week's event. And we will go through and put them in to connect the dots and tell you exactly what it is that has happened in the Assange case and what is now happening with the latest developments.

As a reminder, System Update, each episode of it, is available in podcast form on Spotify, Apple and every other major podcasting platform. Simply follow us on those platforms and you can rate and review us to help spread the word or follow and listen to us there. 

For now, welcome to a new episode of System Update starting right now. 


 

Julian Assange has spent four full years in a high-security prison in the United Kingdom called Belmarsh, which, in 2004, the BBC dubbed proudly the British Guantanamo Bay. It is a prison known for being notoriously harsh. It houses the worst violent criminals as well as terror suspects. Assange, for no good reason whatsoever, has been kept in that prison for four straight years, even though the only crime he has ever been convicted of is a misdemeanor bail-jumping charge stemming from his seeking asylum from Ecuador, back in 2012. And yet it was on April 12, 2019, so four years ago, and two days to this day, that Assange was arrested by British law enforcement agents who went into the Ecuadorian embassy and dragged him out there and brought him to Belmarsh Prison, where he has been held ever since. 

The humanitarian aspect of this story is well known. He married his longtime girlfriend while in prison and had two young children with her – whom he has not been able to raise with her. And doctors, both for his mental health and his physical health, have warned that his health has been gravely degraded over the past four years, and there is a good likelihood that if he continues to be in prison, he will break and possibly even die. Prior to the four years that Assange spent in this British prison, he has been detained for seven years before that, going all the way back to 2012 when he sought asylum from Ecuador and went to the Ecuadorian embassy where he was granted asylum because Sweden was trying to force him to travel to that country where two women had claimed that he had sexually assaulted them, two women whom he had dated for several months who never made those allegations and then suddenly united and both claimed that he had been sexually assaulted. Sweden was seeking his extradition back to Sweden and he was willing to go, except for the concern that Sweden would turn him over to the United States. As we're about to show you had Sweden simply agreed, as both Ecuador and Assange's lawyers requested not to use his presence on Swedish soil as a pretext to then turn him over to the United States to stand trial for national security crimes, had Sweden simply agreed, If you come to Sweden and face these charges, we will not use your presence here to turn you over to the U.S., Assange would have gotten on the next plane to Sweden to face those charges. It was when the Swedish government refused to give those assurances that the Ecuadorian stepped in and said he was clearly in danger in terms of his political rights and his human rights from being turned over to the United States and sent to prison for the rest of his life for the crime of having reported on the United States government. 

There's, I think, a very good strong case to make that Julian Assange is definitely one of the most consequential and intrepid journalists of the last, say, 50 years, if not the single most important pioneering journalist of his generation. He has almost certainly broken more major stories than almost every single employee of the mainstream media outlet combined. They don't hate Julian Assange, despite the fact that he's broken so many stories. They hate him precisely because of that – in part because he shined. He holds up a mirror showing what they really are. He is what they pretend to be. While the mainstream media constantly publishes stories that they dress up as leaks but in fact are nothing more than propaganda messaging tasks given to them by the CIA and the FBI and Homeland Security, which pick up the phone and pick their favorite reporter and tell them what to go plant in the newspaper to disseminate propaganda to the American people, Assange never does that and never had to and never would. He shows the American people and the world the secrets the CIA and the FBI and the Pentagon and Homeland Security don't want you to see. And that's why those agencies hate him. And that's why the employees and the media outlets that serve those agencies also hate him. That is the reason that he's in prison. Almost every single employee of The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN and NBC, on a daily basis – you can pick up those newspapers or if you have the misfortune to listen to those networks, you will hear or read them saying – “anonymous officials told us” X, Y, and Z, they publish classified information all the time. But they don't end up like Julian Assange or Jack Teixeira – the 21-year-old member of the Massachusetts National Guard was hunted this week by The New York Times and The Washington Post and then arrested yesterday by the FBI because he is accused of having leaked classified documents. The difference between the mainstream media on the one hand and Assange and Jack Teixeira and people like Edward Snowden on the other is that the mainstream media publishes leaks that are authorized, that the U.S. Security State wants you to see because they're forms of propaganda and that's why they're never punished. That's why they don't end up in prison. They get book deals; they get put on television and they're applauded by the U.S. government. The people who end up in prison are those who show you the secrets they want to hide. That's the main difference. It's the difference between being a propagandist and being a journalist. Julian Assange is a journalist, and that's the reason he's in prison. 

One of the things that struck me this week about this new leaker, this 21-year-old, is that it follows the same pattern that is always used whenever we have an unauthorized leak, meaning a leak the U.S. Security State did not plant themselves. You can go down and look at how Edward Snowden was treated, how Julian Assange is being treated, and even how Daniel Ellsberg was treated, or Chelsea Manning – you see exactly the same pattern in the way their media servants behave. So, one of the things that are being done, arguably the leading tactic that's being used to malign and demean this newest leaker is to try to do everything possible to distract your attention away from the substance of the documents that he allegedly enabled us to see. And while some documents made their way onto the Internet that I myself would not have published because they don't seem to be in the public interest, many of them are clearly in the public interest. We devoted our show on Monday and again last night to examining some of those documents, including the fact that Joe Biden ordered American Special Forces to be deployed on the ground to Ukraine. So, whether you're in favor of this war in Ukraine or not, whether you're in favor of the U.S. proxy war in Ukraine or not, the government and the media have hidden from you the rather important fact that the United States actually has troops or Special Forces on the ground participating in a hot war with Russia. 

Those documents revealed that the United States and Zelenskyy both believe and have the position that there will be no negotiating, let alone a diplomatic resolution into 2023, which means they expect and want the war to extend at least through 2024. That's tens of billions if not hundreds of billions of dollars or more that you're going to be told you have to send to Kyiv and to Zelenskyy. Of course, that's something we ought to know. Some documents say that, as a result of spying on Zelenskyy, the U.S. government knows that he intends to use the weapons he's obtained from NATO and from the U.S. to strike deep into Russian territory, even though we were told repeatedly that the U.S. weapons would never be used to strike Russian territory, only to defend Ukraine, given the very serious risk that can spiral into escalation. And if you want to see all the other things these documents revealed, in the public interest, that we, as Americans, ought to know, because they revealed things that our government is doing in secret or reveal lies that they told about what they're doing. you can watch our show on Monday, you can watch our show last night or you can – for those of you who are Locals subscribers to our local community – look at the article we published. It's actually available. We made it available to everyone. It's not behind any paywall, so anyone can look at it where we've been compiling the documents that were leaked that we ourselves are reporting on. We want you to be able to see those documents that we don't believe that we get to see them and you don't. CNN, when they showed these documents, they blurred them. The New York Times and The Washington Post will talk about them but won't show them. We believe you have every right to see what your government is doing in the dark. And the reason we got to see these is that this 21-year-old decided that they should be seen. 

But instead of focusing on these critically important revelations, there's instead an attempt to focus on his personality, to distract your attention away from the substance of the revelations, and instead get you to hate him or dislike him or think poorly of him so that you have a negative view of the things that he revealed and sad that your focus is on him as a person and not on the revelations themselves. So here, for example, is a Fortune Magazine article. There are countless of these doing the same thing. There you see the headline: “Alleged Pentagon leaker was a conspiracy theorist who shared racist memes and anti-Semitic ideas.” 

I suppose that is relevant if you are trying to decide whether you like Jack Teixeira or not – I personally have a hard time believing it's uncommon that teenage forums, which is what this was, it was mostly 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21-year-olds. He was the oldest one. I have a hard time believing it's uncommon that people in these kinds of underground gaming communities don't say transgressive things. Oftentimes, teenagers or young adults in their early twenties say things not out of malice, but out of transgression. But be that as it may, assume, if you want, that he's racist and anti-Semitic, what does that have to do at all with the revelations that he enabled us to see? Nothing. As a journalist, I'm not interested in whether he's a pure person or a nice person with good political views. It doesn't interest me at all. Why would it? What interests me are the documents, and yet what the media is doing over and over and over is trying to get you to focus on his personality traits. This is exactly the same thing that was done when we first did the reporting in 2013, based on the documents provided by Edward Snowden that revealed the American government was spying on the American people en masse in violation of the Constitution and the law – it was unconstitutional and legal infringement of millions of Americans privacy rights and a court ultimately ruled that the program we revealed, the NSA indiscriminate domestic spying program, violated the Fourth Amendment and violated the law. And yet, instantly – we waited about a week, we did stories for a week. And then at Snowden's insistence, we put him on camera. We interviewed him so that he could step forward and say, You don't have to find me, I'm not hiding, I don't believe I did anything wrong. I believe I owe it to the American people to explain why I've done this. And he went on camera and said, “I began thinking the same things most people are taught to believe about the U.S. government.” He tried to enlist in the Army to fight in the Iraq war, but along the way, he became disillusioned when he saw that our government frequently lies to the American people. He explained that he saw that these systems were not being used against foreign threats like al-Qaida or ISIS but, instead, had been turned on the American people indiscriminately. And then he explained the final straw was when he heard James Clapper, the senior national security adviser for the Obama administration, went before the United States Senate and then falsely deny that the NSA was spying en masse on millions of American citizens. He had the evidence on his hand proving that James Clapper lied. The government was doing exactly that, which he falsely said it wasn't. And so, he came to myself and Laura Poitras and handed us this full archive of documents so that we could do the reporting and yet, soon as we unveiled them – and we knew this was going to happen – the focus immediately switched to away from what the NSA was doing to “Oh, Edward Snowden is a narcissist, he thinks he has the right to decide what should and shouldn't be revealed” – digging into his past blog posts in order again to get you to distract your attention away from what the substantive revelations were on to Edward Snowden as a person.

I think people have forgotten how aggressively that strategy invoked with Julian Assange was to create a climate in which Americans would come to regard him as someone who is untoward, somebody who provoked feelings of discomfort, all in order to personalize the leaks onto Assange and therefore not want to pay attention to the leaks. 

Just to show you how far this went, here's an article that was published in 2011, just a few months after WikiLeaks concluded its first real major scoop, the one for which Assange is now being prosecuted, showing war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan and the diplomatic cables that revealed U.S. allies around the world are deeply corrupt, in the Arab world and elsewhere. We'll show you exactly what WikiLeaks revealed in 2010, and how important those revelations were, but here is what the editor in chief, the executive editor of The New York Times of the time, Bill Keller, did just months after WikiLeaks. And remember, The New York Times participated in some of this reporting. They worked with Assange. Look at this paragraph that Bill Keller published, which he claims he got from one of his reporters right after he had met with Assange. 

 

He [meaning Assange] was alert but disheveled, like a bag lady walking in off the street wearing a dingy, light-colored sport coat and cargo pants, dirty white shirt, beat-up sneakers and filthy white socks that collapsed around his ankles. He smelled as if he hadn't bathed in days (The New York Times. January 26, 2011). 

 

Do you see that attempt to get you to think Julian Assange is such a dirty person in every sense of the word that you should forget about everything that WikiLeaks just revealed about what your government did, all the lies that it told you, just like they're doing with Jack Teixeira now?  

Here's another similar headline published in Vox, in 2019, on the day that Julian Assange was arrested. This is Vox, a website filled with writers who have never broken a major story of any kind, let alone one that requires courage or that consists of standing up to powerful institutions. They should revere Julian Assange but, instead, they're shame bound. They think about him because he shows what they really are. And so, this is the kind of headline that they published on the day Assange was arrested in order to get you to focus on Assange, the person “Why Ecuador Released Julian Assange: Rudeness, Spying and Poop. He was the worst houseguest. Seriously, the worst.” I mean, that is really what they said. It's not just what they said, but the tone. It's like an adolescent. “He was seriously the worst houseguest.” Seriously, the worst. This is Alex Ward. I've never heard of this person. I know for a fact, by the fact that he works for Vox, that he's never broken a significant story. And yet he's utilizing the tactic that the establishment uses against anyone who brings incriminating and illuminating evidence to light about what the U.S. Security State does. And that is exactly what they did all the time with Assange.

I think it's worth recalling how WikiLeaks came into public prominence even before that 2010 major series of stories that they did about Iraq and Afghanistan because I think this has been somewhat forgotten. I remember very well the first day that I ever heard of Julian Assange. When I saw this article in The New York Times, on March 17, 2010, I was a journalist for Salon, and it is the first time I had really focused on WikiLeaks. I believe I had heard of them before because they had done some minor leaks, but this is the time I really focused on them. So, this is an article entitled “Pentagon Sees a Threat from Online Muckrakers,” and it's an article describing how the U.S. Army had prepared a report declaring WikiLeaks to be an enemy of the state and parting ways to destroy them. Here's what the New York Times reported, 

 

To the list of the enemies threatening the security of the United States, the Pentagon has added WikiLeaks.org, a tiny online source of information and documents that governments and corporations around the world would prefer to keep secret. The Pentagon assessed the danger WikiLeaks.org posed to the Army in a report marked “unauthorized disclosure subject to criminal sanctions.” It concluded that WikiLeaks.org represents a potential force protection, counterintelligence, OPSEC and INFOSEC threat to the U.S. Army – or, in plain English, a threat to Army operations and information. 

 

WikiLeaks, true to its mission to publish materials that expose secrets of all kinds, published the 2008 Pentagon report about itself on Monday (The New York Times. March 17, 2010). 

 

 

So, in other words, the U.S. Army published a secret report declaring WikiLeaks an enemy of the state and plotting ways to destroy it, including by submitting fabricated or fake documents to WikiLeaks in the hope that they would publish it and destroy their credibility. WikiLeaks got a hold of that U.S. Army report and published it on their website. And then the New York Times did this write-up. 

The New York Times went on:

 

WikiLeaks, a nonprofit organization, has rankled governments and companies around the world with its publication of materials intended to be kept secret. For instance, the Army's report says that in 2008, access to the website in the United States was cut off by a court order after Bank Julius Baer, a Swiss financial institution, sued it [WikiLeaks] for publishing documents implicating Baer in money laundering, grand larceny and tax evasion. Access was restored after two weeks when the bank dropped this case. 

 

Governments, including those of North Korea and Thailand, also have tried to prevent access to the [WikiLeaks] site and complained about its release of materials critical of their governments and policies. 

 

The Army's interest in WikiLeaks appears to have been spurred by, among other things, its publication and analysis of classified and unclassified army documents containing information about military equipment, units, operations and “nearly the entire order of battle” for American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan in April 2007 (The New York Times. March 17, 2010). 

 

So, before WikiLeaks did its major story, the one based on the archive provided by Chelsea Manning, it did go around the world exposing corporate corruption, toxic waste dumping in Kenya, money laundering in a Swiss bank – and a Swiss banker actually sued WikiLeaks and got their website shut down for two weeks – as well as other acts that the United States government was doing in both Iraq and Afghanistan, to the point where even before those major leaks became before WikiLeaks came on the radar of everybody, the Army had declared them to be an enemy of the state and parted ways to destroy their reputation. 

One of the things that WikiLeaks did, after all of that was, in 2010, they did get this archive from Chelsea Manning. That was the thing that put them on the map that made the entire U.S. Security State devoted to their destruction. Here is, for example, an article that I wrote after The New York Times published that article about the U.S. Army report when the U.S. Army was already planning to destroy WikiLeaks. And I wrote about it just based on that called Julian Assange, the day I saw that New York Times article, I interviewed him for Salon because I knew that the model he had created all the way back then was going to be pioneering in journalism. The model that he created was designed to allow sources around the world to furnish large amounts of digital information that institutions of power wanted to keep secret. This was the genius of Julian Assange. This is why he became so dangerous. Julian Assange realized before anyone else did that the future of journalism in the digital age was going to be large-scale digital leaks. And to facilitate that, he needed to provide a way for sources – people inside these institutions – to provide these leaks securely and safely. And so, what he did, using his skills as a computer programmer, was create a submission program that guaranteed anonymity to those providing this information. That's what made him so threatening. When Daniel Ellsberg published the Pentagon Papers in 1971, which were tens of thousands of top-secret documents that showed that the United States government was systematically lying to the American people about the war in Vietnam, one of the main problems Ellsberg faced back in 1971 was a logistical problem. If you want to leak tens of thousands of pages to a newspaper, how do you even copy it? Do you go to the local drugstore and carry a huge suitcase of dimes and just one after the next at the Xerox machine in the pharmacy copy page after page after page after page? That is similar to what Ellsberg ended up doing. But in the digital age, everything changed. It became extremely easy for someone inside an institution like Edward Snowden or Chelsea Manning or Jack Teixeira to take information very quickly by downloading it and then sending it to a journalist to publish it, curate it, to report on it. And Assange’s genius, his pioneering prescient anticipation and recognition was that all that you need to do was to create a safe way for sources to do that, and they would come to you. And that's what he created. He was able to hold all kinds of corporate and state institutions accountable before that big leak even happened. And that's what caused me to interview him and write about him in 2010 and the headline that I used at Salon, my first write about WikiLeaks – the first time – was “The War on WikiLeaks and Why it Matters.” The subheading was “The U.S. government escalates its campaign to harass and destroy a key whistleblowing site.” So, this war between Assange and the U.S. government has been long in the making, well before people even had heard of WikiLeaks. 

The first leak that I ever wrote about back then is a really fascinating one. It's been lost to memory and it's been lost to history. This was, again, before the Collateral Murder video and all the things that he ended up showing. It was a CIA red cell letter. That was in March 2010. And a CIA red cell letter is a way that the CIA recognizes a certain problem in the world that's emerging and thinks about how they can try and solve it. The problem that this CIA red cell letter was anticipating and discussing, and it's one that WikiLeaks obtained and leaked – it’s fascinating. They were very worried that the war in Afghanistan was becoming increasingly unpopular. Listen to this! People in Western Europe started to wonder, why are we fighting a war in Afghanistan for nine years now? Why are we sending our sons and daughters to go fight and die in Afghanistan against the Taliban? How does this make any sense? Why are we spending billions of dollars on a war in Afghanistan when our standard of living is plummeting at home? And there had been two governments, one in the Netherlands and another one that had fallen in parliamentary elections, largely due to the popular anger that those governments wanted to keep fighting in the war in Afghanistan. The CIA was petrified that if anti-war sentiment about the war in Afghanistan continued to spread throughout Western Europe, every government that was fought over the war would lose or they would be forced to pull troops out. In other words, they would be forced to adhere to the wishes of the population. And you can't have that. So, this CIA red letter was to say, how are we going to fix this problem? And here you see this fascinating title of the CIA memo – and again, the only reason we know about this is because WikiLeaks published it – where they say, “Afghanistan: Sustaining Western European Support for the NATO-Led Mission – Why Counting on Apathy Might Not Be Enough.” That's an incredibly revealing phrase. The CIA knows that nobody was waking up in Western Europe or the United States in 2010 and wanting the government to send people to die and spend resources on the war in Afghanistan. What they count on instead is apathy. They go and they fight their wars in Syria and Libya and Iraq and Afghanistan and Ukraine, and they know it doesn't improve your life, they know that that's not what you want, but what they count on is your apathy. Then at some point, you just kind of give up. You say, “I can't do anything about it.” This war is going to go on for as long as they want it to, and there's not much I can do. It's apathy. And the CIA saying we usually count on apathy. That's how we get our way. That's how we're able to do things against the will of the population. But in this case, apathy may not be enough because anti-war sentiment is spreading throughout Western Europe. And so, their solution was to make Barack Obama the face of the war in Afghanistan because they knew that Western Europeans adored Barack Obama. They saw that Barack Obama was a tool of theirs, a marketing tool to take this war that was started by George Bush, whom Western Europeans looked at with disapproval. Bush was a swaggering American, an evangelical, religious Christian, something not popular in Western Europe and they replaced that face with the much more cosmopolitan and progressive face of Barack Obama. The CIA knew that if they could make Barack Obama the face of that war and give it a progressive rationale, they would stem the tide of antiwar sentiment in Western Europe and enable that war to continue. And that's exactly what happened. So here in this memo, the CIA says, “Appeals by President Obama and Afghan Women May Gain Traction.” That's the headline of what the CIA is saying: they knew that appeals by President Obama and using Afghan women would make Western Europeans agree to have this war continue, 

 

The confidence of the French and German publics in President Obama's ability to handle foreign affairs in general and Afghanistan in particular suggest that they would be receptive to his direct affirmation of the importance to the ISAF mission – and sensitive to direct expressions of disappointment in allies who do not help (CIA Red Letter). 

 

Isn't that fascinating? The CIA knew that Obama was a marketing tool for their wars, and that's what he became. And that worked. Western Europe stayed with the United States until the United States left Afghanistan. 

That is the kind of thing that WikiLeaks is publishing. And that's why the U.S. Security State decided they had to destroy Julian Assange with things like having Bill Keller go and say his socks were filthy, he didn't take a bath. But then the big leak was the one that Chelsea Manning enabled, in 2010, that no matter what your views on those wars were, in Afghanistan and Iraq, in the War on Terror, unquestionably, we ought to have seen these things that WikiLeaks enabled us to see. This is the reporting in 2010, not what Julian Assange did in 2016 in the election, but this reporting is what he's being prosecuted for. 

So, I could spend all night showing you what that reporting revealed but just to give you a couple of samples, here, from November 2010, there are documents that Hillary “Clinton ordered American diplomats to spy on UN officials.” (FP. Nov 29, 2010). Do you think Hillary Clinton, who at the time was the secretary of state, was appreciative that she got caught spying on UN officials? Here from The Guardian, you see “Iraq War Logs: Secret Order That Let U.S. To Ignore Abuse.” There was an order in place where the United States government knew that Iraqi security forces, which we were arming and training, were using torture and murder against dissidents to the regime we installed and there was an order in place telling American troops they were to ignore that and overlook it and not do anything about it. And then, of course, there was the most famous part of all, which was the video that WikiLeaks published showing American troops gunning down 12 innocent people, including two Reuters journalists, killing them all as they tried to crawl away and then shooting on the people who came in to rescue them, ambulance workers and the like as well. Let's take just a look at just a small portion of that video to remind you how Julian Assange became an enemy of the state to the point where he's in prison 13 years later. 

 

Now, I don't think people are particularly surprised that wars entail the killing of innocent civilians, even sometimes what seemed to be deliberate, and you hear the troops kind of celebrating it. But images are very powerful and we should know what our government is doing in our name. We constantly see the victims in Ukraine so our emotions are whipped up to hate Russia and to be disgusted by the Russian war. But all the reporting that WikiLeaks did in 2010 as part of that reporting on Hillary Clinton, on the Clinton State Department in the Obama administration, what we were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, what our allies around the world were doing, were all incredibly newsworthy. As I said, they were more significant and huge scoops than the work of almost every employee of media outlets combined. And it was at that point that our government decided that Julian Assange and WikiLeaks had to be destroyed at any cost – because he was too dangerous. And the reason he was too dangerous is that unlike the people who are working in the New York Times and The Washington Post and NBC and CNN, who do the U.S. Security State's bidding, who are little more than glorified messengers for the U.S. Security State, Julian Assange was doing real journalism and that is what we can't have. You can have all the guarantees in the Constitution that you want about a free press, but it's just words on parchment paper if we allow the government to then go and imprison those who do real reporting – and it's always with the aid of media outlets to destroy his reputation with the kind of stuff that I showed you. 

That is basically part one, the first half, of what really happened to Julian Assange. That is what led to the determination of the United States government to destroy him. I think that part of the story is extremely significant. We're going to show you part two, which is what led to Assange's arrest and how that was effectuated, the reason why it's so morally grotesque and the most recent events that are giving some hope that he could be released. 

But before we get to that, we have a new part of our show, which I'm about to explain in this clip I'm about to show you ways that, as an independent journalist and independent media, which is what we hear on this show are, we are now going to look for different ways that we can support our journalism. So, we just prepared a very quick video explaining how we're going to do that. And we will be back in just a couple of minutes. I hope you watch what it is that we taped. 


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So, when we left off, we had just explained the huge bombshell that was WikiLeaks’ reporting, certainly even before the major scoops of 2010 but then, through 2010, I don't think it's difficult to understand why the government and its servants in the media were so enraged with what WikiLeaks and Julian Assange had done. 

The problem became how was it? How could the government possibly destroy WikiLeaks and Assange for reporting – even the United States under Obama? It was a bridge too far to be explicit about the fact that they wanted to go and arrest somebody and put them in prison for the reporting that they just did of the kind that I just showed you. So, lo and behold, in 2010, that was when there appeared to materialize two women who claimed that Assange had sexually assaulted them, that they began having sex with him consensually and at some point, requested he uses a condom. He didn't use a condom and, under Swedish law, that's considered sexual assault or even rape. And Assange was more than willing to go to Sweden to face those charges as long as Sweden agreed not to use his presence on their soil as an excuse to turn them over to the United States – as Sweden, as a close American ally, had done in the past. When Sweden refused, that was when he sought asylum in the embassy. 

The so-called rape investigation in Sweden was dropped in 2019. They couldn't get the evidence that they needed to do that. They claimed it was because he had waited long enough but the reality was, he was more than willing to be interviewed in the Ecuadorian embassy. The Swedish investigators kept saying they couldn't do that because they wanted to lure him to Sweden. It was so obvious what they were doing. They wanted to get him to Sweden to give him to the U.S., whereas the British had a slightly more independent court system. And then when they couldn't, they finally went and interviewed him and then they dropped the case. So, there's no more sexual assault or rape investigation. That has been closed. He was never charged with that, let alone convicted of that, so, that has nothing to do with why he's now in prison. 

When they went in to arrest him, they charged him with bail-jumping, meaning, back in 2012, he was scheduled for a court date and instead of going to court, he got asylum from Ecuador. Every sovereign state grants asylum. The United States grants asylum all the time to people who are wanted back home for crimes. It's a recognized right. He was convicted of bail jumping. He got the maximum 50-week sentence and he's long ago served that. He served that from 2019 to 2020. So, there are no more pending charges against him in the UK. He is not serving any kind of sentence for jail time. The only reason he's in prison is that the Biden administration is pursuing this in this indictment and demanding he is extradited to the United States – and pending that extradition, the British refused to let him out of prison. They're basically holding him on without bond. 

Even though, as I said before, even under Obama – who prosecuted more whistleblowers than all previous presidents combined under the Espionage Act, he was incredibly aggressive when it came to prosecuting journalists and their sources – even under the Obama administration, as they said, they couldn't prosecute Assange for doing reporting. But they did try. They convened a grand jury. They investigated WikiLeaks for two or three years. They made clear they wanted to find a way to prosecute him. They wanted to prove that he conspired with Chelsea Manning to get those documents, that he didn't just passively receive them, but they couldn't find any evidence. And so, in 2013, there you see from The Washington Post, the Obama administration acknowledged that they were unlikely to prosecute Julian Assange. The article reads, 

 

Julian Assange Unlikely to Face U.S. Charges Over Publishing Classified Documents.

 

The Justice Department has all but concluded it will not bring charges against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange for publishing classified documents because government lawyers said they could not do so without also prosecuting U.S. news organizations and journalists. According to U.S. officials. 

 

The Obama administration has charged government employees and contractors who leak classified information – such as former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and former Army intelligence analyst Bradley Manning – with violations of the Espionage Act. But officials said that although Assange published classified documents, he did not leak them –something they said significantly affects their legal analysis. (The Washington Post. Nov. 25, 2013). 

 

In other words, he published them but did not leak them. 

 

The problem the department has always had investigating Julian Assange is there is no way to prosecute him for publishing information without the same theory being applied to journalists,” said former Justice Department spokesman Matthew Miller. And if you're not going to prosecute journalists for publishing classified information, which the department is not, then there is no way to prosecute Assange (The Washington Post. Nov. 25, 2013).  

 

That is a really important point there, which is that it wasn't just Julian Assange that published those documents from the Iraq and Afghanistan war logs and the diplomatic cables. News outlets like the New York Times and The Guardian also published them. And so, the question was, how can you possibly prosecute Julian Assange but not prosecute the media outlets that publish the same documents? The Obama Justice Department, though, they tried, concluded there was no way to do it. But the pressure continued to build because the establishment was adamant that Julian Assange be convicted. 

Here you see from The Economist, an editorial entitled “Why Julian Assange Should be Extradited? The WikiLeaks co-founder is accused of hacking, not leaking, and that is a serious crime,” says The Economist, in 2019. 

Dianne Feinstein, the Democratic senator from California, published an article, an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal in 2010 urging, “Prosecute Assange under the Espionage Act.” The California Democrat wrote, “Just as the First Amendment is not a license to yell ‘Fire’ in a crowded theater, it is also not a license to jeopardize national security.” So, The Economist, Dianne Feinstein were demanding Assange be prosecuted, notwithstanding the difficulty of how you prosecute Assange for doing the same thing journalists do. And I'm sure most of you don't remember this – or maybe you never saw it – but back in 2010 or 2011, Joe Biden, the then-vice president under President Obama, went on “Meet the Press” and he called Julian Assange a “high tech terrorist.” Look at this video. 

 

(Video.  ABC News. July 12, 2007).

Meet the Press: Here is classified material. Mitch McConnell said he's a high-tech terrorist. Others say this is akin to the Pentagon Papers. Where do you come from?

 

President Biden: I would argue that it's closer to being in the high-tech terrorists than the Pentagon Papers. 

 

Do you see what the media does? Julian Assange is doing their job and in turn, they turn around and are laying the foundation for the government to prosecute him for doing what they pretend to do. As a reminder, I went to “Meet the Press” shortly after I began publishing the Snowden materials. And there, that host, David Gregory, asked me twice whether I should be also imprisoned, along with Edward Snowden, for the work that I was doing. He then convened a panel with Chuck Todd and others, people, again, who have never broken a story of any kind and they all sat around talking about how I'm not a real journalist, how I probably could and should be prosecuted. The next day, Andrew Ross Sorkin of The New York Times went on a CNBC show and he urged that I be imprisoned alongside Snowden. He eventually apologized, but that is what these media outlets do. They are vicious agents for the U.S. Security State. They don't do journalism. They're propagandists for the U.S. Security State and they despise anybody who does real journalism like Julian Assange. So that was the climate at the time. You have establishment voices demanding Assange be prosecuted, even though the Obama Justice Department is saying, we want it, but we can't. 

And so, he kind of just stayed in the Ecuadorian embassy from 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016 through the Obama administration. And what changed? And some of you may not want to hear this, but it is nonetheless true, the person most singularly responsible for the fact that Julian Assange ended up being indicted in 2019, not under the Obama administration or the Biden administration, but under the Trump administration, was Mike Pompeo, the person I regard as Donald Trump's biggest mistake? Several neocons exploited Trump's worst character flaw, which is that he's easily manipulated by anybody who flatters him. He was just on an interview with Tucker Carlson talking about how he refuses to criticize Gavin Newsom because Gavin Newsom, the California Democratic governor, says good things about Trump and said good things about Trump – if you say good things about Trump and flatter him, he will keep you in his good graces. 

Mike Pompeo was very clever and very smart and knew how to do that and wiggled his way in to being Trump's CIA director first, he was the head of the CIA under Trump and then his State Department, his Secretary of State. Mike Pompeo, when he was at the CIA, gave a speech where he stood up and vowed to see at the CIA that he would do everything in his power to destroy WikiLeaks and ensure that Julian Assange would never be free again. I reported on that speech at the time. I was at The Intercept. There you see the headline in 2017. The headline is “Trump CIA Director Mike Pompeo Targeting Wikileaks Explicitly Threatens Speech and Press Freedoms. Why is the U.S. press corps so silent about an actual threat to press freedom?” This is when the media was whining every day about mean things Trump was saying about Jim Acosta or Wolf Blitzer or Chuck Todd. And what I was writing to say as I listened to that speech was that I had never heard a more direct assault on press freedom than Mike Pompeo at the CIA, the CIA director, vowing to do everything in his power to destroy Julian Assange. Here's the article. 

 

In February, after Donald Trump tweeted that the U.S. media were the “enemy, the people,” the targets of his insult exploded with indignation, devoting wall-to-wall media coverage to what they depicted as a grave assault on press freedoms more befitting of a tyranny.

 

 By stark and disturbing contrast, the media reaction yesterday was far more muted, even welcoming, when Trump's CIA director, Mike Pompeo, actually and explicitly vowed to target freedoms of speech and press, in a blistering, threatening speech he delivered to the DC think tank Center for Strategic and International Studies. 

 

What made Pompeo's overt threats of repression so palatable to many was that they were not directed at CNN, The New York Times, or other beloved-in-DC outlets, but rather at WikiLeaks. [Pompeo] stood up in public and explicitly threatened to target free speech rights and press freedoms, and it was almost impossible to find even a single U.S. mainstream journalist expressing objections or alarm because the targets Pompeo chose in this instance are ones they dislike – much the way that many are willing to overlook or even sanction free speech repression if the targeted ideas or speakers are sufficiently unpopular. 

Decreeing (with no evidence) that WikiLeaks is a “non-state hostile intelligence service often abetted by state actors like Russia,” a belief that has become gospel in establishment Democratic Party circles – Pompeo proclaimed that “We have to recognize that we can no longer allow Assange and his colleagues the latitude to use free speech values against us.” (G. Greenwald. April 14, 2017).

 

 

Pompeo:  ‘We can no longer allow Assange and his colleagues the latitude to use free speech values against us.’  

 

 

[Pompeo] also argued that while WikiLeaks “pretended that America's First Amendment freedoms shield them from justice,” but “they may have believed that, but they are wrong.” 

 

He then issued this remarkable threat: “To give them the space to crush us with misappropriated secrets is a perversion of what our great Constitution stands for. It ends now.” At no point did Pompeo specify what steps the CIA had to take to ensure that the “space” to publish secrets “ends now.” (G. Greenwald. April 14, 2017).

 

So that was really the event that turned the tide against Julian Assange. He was still forced to stay in the Ecuadorian embassy, which certainly was not very good but it was Mike Pompeo who insisted that the Trump Justice Department devote itself to turning him into a felon and prosecuting him. And that's where the current criminal investigation of the Biden administration is now pursuing and demanding Assange be extradited to stand trial for it. That's where it began with Mike Pompeo and the CIA. 

Here's The New York Times article that reported on how that happened. The headline is “How the Trump Administration Stepped Up Pursuit of Wikileaks’s Assange.” And there you see the article:

 

Soon after he took over as CIA director, Mike Pompeo privately told lawmakers about a new target for American spies: Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks. Mr. Pompeo and former Attorney General Jeff Sessions unleashed an aggressive campaign against Mr. Assange, reversing an Obama-era view of WikiLeaks as a journalistic entity. 

 

For more than a year, the nation's spies and investigators sought to learn about Mr. Assange and his ties to Russia, as senior administration officials claimed to believe he was in league with Moscow (The New York Times. April 13, 2023). 

 

And then that is when the indictment came. It's in 2019. It's from the U.S. Attorney's office in eastern Virginia, and there's a press release: “WikiLeaks founder Charged in Computer Hacking Conspiracy.” (U.S. Attorney’s Office. April 11, 2019).

The problem with this case here is twofold. Number one, they're charging him under the Espionage Act of 1917. That is an archaic law that was implemented by Woodrow Wilson in order to criminalize Americans who dissented from Woodrow Wilson's desire to involve America in World War I in Europe. And the law is written to be impossible to defend yourself against. It makes it an absolute crime to publish classified information. This is the law that they're using to charge Edward Snowden with as well. And under this law, it is not a defense to say, yes, I publish classified information, but I was justified in doing so because the U.S. government was abusing the classification powers and secrecy powers to hide its crimes. When Edward Snowden sought asylum in Russia, people like Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry and Hillary Clinton kept saying, ‘Oh, if he's such a brave whistleblower, let him come back and convince a jury – they would’ never be able to say that now but, in 2016, they could say, let him man up and convince a jury that what he did was justified. It was a total lie. Under this law, you're prohibited from even raising that as a defense. That was Daniel Ellsberg's plan: to go into court and say, yes, I read the Pentagon Papers, but I was justified. And that was when the court ruled under the Espionage Act, you're not allowed to even raise that as a defense. It's almost impossible to win. The only reason Daniel Ellsberg is not in prison for the rest of his life is because the Nixon administration, the CIA, the FBI, broke into his psychoanalyst office. Remember earlier I was saying that the tactic used against whistleblowers is to focus you on their personal character, to distract attention from the revelations. So, when Daniel Ellsberg proved that the U.S. government was lying about the Vietnam War, knowing internally they couldn't win by telling the public they could win, their tactic was to go to his psychoanalyst office and break in and discover his psychosexual secrets. They got caught, and only for that reason did the court dismiss the criminal indictment against Daniel Ellsberg. That's the only reason he didn't go to prison for the rest of his life. This Espionage Act is written to make it impossible for anyone to defend themselves, and that's what they want to charge Julian Assange and Edward Snowden with. And secondly, they're doing it on purpose in eastern Virginia, which is notorious for having very pro-National Security State judges, and especially a community in which CIA agents and FBI agents and operatives of the U.S. Security State – this is where they all live. So, the jury is going to be composed of U.S. Security State operatives or people who support this Security State. Everything about this is making it impossible to win. 

I think it's really important to note that while a huge amount of establishment support is in favor of Julian Assange being in prison – from the media, from the economist, from Dianne Feinstein, from Joe Biden – there's also a very significant and I would even say growing opposition, mostly people who are anti-establishment on either the left or the right. During the Trump era. one of the leading voices in the country crusading for a pardon for Julian Assange, which Donald Trump, by all reports, almost gave – and I was involved in those efforts to get a pardon for Snowden and Assange I know it's true that Trump did almost do it. I think one of the worst things Trump did was left office without giving either of them a pardon. I once did a video report explaining why that happened. The impeachment was hanging over his head, the second impeachment. Republicans like Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio said to him, if you pardon either of them or if you declassify CIA documents on your way out, we will vote to impeach you. I'm not excusing Trump, I'm just saying why he didn't do it. But there were a lot of people crusading for Assange. One of them was Tucker Carlson, the most-watched cable-news host in the country. He went on at least 20 or 25 times, both during Trump and since, and urged the public to support a pardon for Julian Assange, insisting that Assange, far from being a criminal, is actually a hero. Let's just look at one of the many times he did that. 

 

(Video. Tucker Carlson Tonight. Sept. 20, 2021).

 

Tucker Carlson: Julian Assange has been in jail for an awfully long time. He's now in jail in the UK and was under house arrest in a foreign embassy in London. The U.S. is now accused Julian Assange of violating the Espionage Act. That's been going on for a long time and it's just dumb weird. It took us a very long time – years – to ask the obvious question: what exactly did Julian Assange do wrong? All good people hate Julian Assange. What was his crime exactly? Was he hacking into other people's computers or was he stealing secrets from the U.S. government? No, actually, he was publishing things. He was a journalist. He was an editor. That's literally true. Can you throw editors in jail because they embarrass you? Probably shouldn't. Not a good precedent to set. Even if you don't like the person's politics, you should be against that. 

 

Here's to me the most repellent part of this entire monstrosity of keeping Julian Assange in a high-security prison for four years and trying to imprison him for life. Back in 2010, when the reporting was done, based on the archive about Iraq and Afghanistan, there was a lot of support among American liberals on the left for Julian Assange. Back then, when I was writing constantly in support of Assange when I was reporting on WikiLeaks, I was getting a lot of support from liberals and leftists and even mainstream Democrats who recognized in Assange the attributes of a journalist. A lot of them were against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they were therefore happy that he had exposed the crimes being conducted by our government in the name of that war. 

Now, though, it is almost impossible to find any liberal or leftist or Democrat to say anything positive about Julian Assange. And the only thing that changed from 2010 that made that true is that, in 2016, Julian Assange enabled reporting that was harmful to Hillary Clinton's candidacy because it shed incriminating light on how the Democratic National Committee was cheating on behalf of Hillary Clinton and against Bernie Sanders. You may recall that the top five officials of the Democratic National Committee in the middle of the 2016 campaign had to resign in the wake of the revelations that Julian Assange reported, including the party chairwoman, Debbie Wasserman Schultz. It was a major scandal for Democrats. And there were other incriminating documents about Hillary Clinton's secret speeches she gave to Goldman Sachs, where she was paid $500,000 or $750,000 that she refused to release, and she would go to Goldman Sachs and say, ‘I'm on your side,’ ‘You are the job creators.’ All the things that she would never say in public. There were all kinds of reports about corruption in the Clinton campaign and in the Democratic Party that Julian Assange disclosed as part of the 2016 election, doing the job of a reporter. 

Nothing that he's being charged with, nothing that he's been indicted for is based on anything he did in the 2016 campaign. He's not charged with being a Russian agent or anything like that. But the reason Democrats are now so supportive of the attempt to prosecute – indict and prosecute him and extradite him – and the reason the Biden administration is so committed to putting him in prison is that he did reporting that was incriminating to the Democratic Party presidential candidate. That's why they want to put him in prison – because he reported truthful information that reflected poorly on Hillary Clinton. It is bad enough. It is completely despotic and tyrannical to want to put a reporter in prison for reporting on classified information, but it's infinitely worse to want to put them in prison because they did political reporting that undermined a Democratic Party politician. And that is the real reason they want to put him in prison. In that sense, he really is a political prisoner. On the surface, on the face of the indictment, he's been indicted for what he did in 2010. The reality, though, is they want to see him rot in jail because of what he did in 2016. 

Just to give you an indication of how bad things were for Julian Assange, even before he went to prison, while he was in the Ecuadorian embassy, the CIA had hired contractors to spy on everything that he was doing inside the Ecuadorian embassy. Here is, for example, a 2019 article from the Spanish daily newspaper El País that is headlined: “Russia and U.S. Visitors Targets for the Spanish Firm that Spied on Julian Assange. The CIA had access to the server where the company stored the profiles of hundreds of people who visited the WikiLeaks founder during his stay in the Ecuadorian embassy in London.” The CIA was spying on everything Assange was doing in that embassy and on every one of his meetings. 

In late 2017, I went to London as a journalist with my husband, David Miranda, who was a member of the Brazilian Congress and we visited Julian Assange. We spent several days with him in the embassy in London. And I read this El País article that indicated that I was one of the people on whom the CIA spied – so, my government was spying on me when I was, as a journalist, going to visit Julian Assange. This surveillance footage that the CIA contractor took of me and my husband, David Miranda, who, again, was a Brazilian congressman at the time, visiting Julian Assange, surfaced on the Internet. Let's take a look at that. 

01:16:15

(Video. CIA Surveillance Footage of Ecuadorian Embassy)

 

When you talk about attacks on press freedom, an assault on a free press, this is what one means. Putting Julian Assange, forcing him into a tiny little room for seven years, where he sought asylum because he knew if he were forced to go to Sweden, they would turn him over to the U.S., and then the proof that he was right all along and that wasn't paranoia, is the fact that the U.S. is now trying to get their hands on him and he spent four years in a maximum security prison. With no end in sight. The Obama the Biden administration wants to ship him here in order to convict him of espionage charges that would probably send him to prison for decades, likely the rest of his life, given the very fragile state that he's in, he couldn't even go outside one time for all those seven years. Even prisoners get sunshine. When he was in the Ecuadorian embassy, it was basically a one-bedroom apartment. Inside. He was constantly being spied on. And he has had his freedom and his liberty deprived for more than a decade now because he believed it was important to hold the U.S. Security State and the U.S. government accountable. 

What sickens me to my core is that the whiny propagandist in the corporate media during the Trump years constantly pretended that they were endangered because Trump would say mean things about them. Let's remember that Jim Acosta – that baloney-dried pedicure hack who has never broken a single story of any significance in his life, who tells his viewers, whatever the CIA and the FBI tell them to – wrote a bestselling book that liberals ate up called “The Enemy of the People - A Dangerous Time to Tell the Truth in America.” He depicted himself as some sort of martyr to press freedom because Trump would occasionally ridicule him, justifiably so, pointed out that CNN is an outlet of fake news, which they are, and occasionally tweeted about him. To these coddled people, that is persecution. Real persecution is what's happening to Julian Assange and what is about to happen now to this new leaker as well. 

Let me just conclude by saying here that the reason this case matters so much is it goes far beyond Julian Assange. I think it is important to demand Assange's freedom because of the travesty of this case, that this father of two young children, this husband, this son, this brother is in prison, wasting away one of the most talented journalists of his generation because the U.S. government hates what he did. But the theory they're using to prosecute him is what is so dangerous. The argument that they're making is that Julian Assange didn't just passively receive information from Chelsea Manning, but he actively conspired with her to get it. Remember when the Obama administration wanted to prosecute Julian Assange, they knew that they had to prove that Assange actually conspired with Manning, that he somehow helped her get that information because if not, they were going to be criminalizing journalism itself. If all Assange did was get the information from Manning, he's like every other journalist. That's what I did in the Snowden case and what I did in the Brazil case. It's what the Pentagon Papers reporters did. You get information from a source and you publish it. And if you criminalize that, you're criminalizing journalism itself. So, the Obama administration knew they had to find something extra Assange did, and they looked everywhere and they couldn't find it and that was why they didn't prosecute him. What Mike Pompeo did was concocted a theory, along with the Justice Department, that what Assange did was he joined Chelsea Manning’s conspiracy for two reasons. Number one, he tried to help her evade detection by helping her get into the system using a different password. It didn't work. She had already given him the documents by the time he attempted that. And that is what journalists do all the time. Of course, you're supposed to help your source evade detection. If a source calls you on the phone, on an open phone line, and says, hey, let me tell you about government secrets that I've learned about, you're going to interject and say, no, don't do that. Don't use an open phone line to call me. Call me on some encrypted channel like a signal or something safer. If you go to The New York Times and The Washington Post. You will find a guide that they publish for their sources on how to communicate with them safely so they don't get caught. 

If it is now a crime for a journalist to give instructions or information to a source on how not to get caught, investigative journalism itself will be criminalized. Every good journalist, by definition, does that. Journalists don't only have the right, but the obligation to help their sources avoid detection and getting caught, which is one of the things that is so repulsive about what The New York Times and The Washington Post did this week in helping the FBI find this leaker, even though it wasn't technically their source because he didn't give the documents to them – which is why they're so angry about it, he put it on Discord. – they did use the materials. They reported on materials. They recognized it as being newsworthy. And then, they turned around and helped the FBI find the source of this information that they implicitly recognized as newsworthy. Embedded in the journalistic ethos is that you protect sources, you regard as heroic the people who provide transparency to these powerful institutions. You don't try and work with the FBI to find them and hunt them down and deliver them to be arrested. It's completely unjournalistic to do that. And that's what makes the indictment of Assange so dangerous it is a theory that says if you advise your source on how not to get caught, you become a criminal. 

The second theory they're using is that he never hacked into any government databases, he never himself stole information, instead, they say once Chelsea Manning gave him those documents, he encouraged her to go back and get more. I cannot put into words how common that is for every journalist to do. If a source comes to you and says, here is a bunch of information to enable you to break a huge story, of course, you're going to say to that person, wow, this is fantastic. Thank you for providing that. Are you able to get something showing X, showing Y, or showing Z as well? Every good journalist would do that. And just to illustrate how dangerous this precedent is that they're trying to set if they prosecute him, when the Brazilian government tried to prosecute me for the reporting I did here in Brazil, that proved that the top judges and prosecutors were corrupt, they actually brought charges against me and they copied the theory of the indictment that the U.S. is using against Assange by trying to say that there was a certain point I told my source, ‘you don't need to keep copies of our chat because if you do, that will enable you to get caught. Instead, I have copies of the chats and we will keep them all, so there's no reason for you to keep them all.’ They tried to convert that into my giving advice to my source as to how not to get caught and then, instead, I became part of the conspiracy when I did that. That's how dangerous that theory is. 

In my case, the court stepped in and said, freedom of the press, and the Brazilian constitution protects me from being prosecuted for that. But unfortunately, in the U.S., the climate is such – a climate created by the media – that has produced so much contempt for Assange, primarily due to what he did in the 2016 election, but also all of these legal tools that have been developed over the years – the Obama administration using the Espionage Act 1917, over and over and over again, that it's almost impossible for anyone charged with these crimes to escape – and for all the talk about how Trump endangered press freedom by calling Wolf Blitzer stupid and by making fun of Jim Acosta. The real assault on press freedom, by far the gravest one that we face, is what is being done right now by the Biden administration to Julian Assange. 

There are people on the right wing of the Republican Party, like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz, who are agitating on behalf of Assange and urging that he be pardoned and the prosecution be dropped. Just this week, finally, there are a few members of the Squad and on the left wing of the Democratic Party, like Rashida Tlaib and Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman, and even AOC, signed the letter who are urging that the prosecution be dropped as well. There's international pressure. A lot of world leaders believe that Julian Assange is a hero. All major press freedom groups in the West, including the ACLU, have banded together to urge that the prosecution be dropped. 

The problem is that the media has done such a good job demonizing Julian Assange, just like they're now in the process of doing with this new leaker, that it's very, very difficult to argue that Julian Assange should be freed and that what he did is journalism. And that's primarily because the corporate media has inverted the idea of what journalism is. They do publish leaks of classified information all the time, but those are the leaks the CIA, the FBI and the Pentagon want you to see. Those are the leaks to propagandize and deceive you. You know that every day you read The New York Times, The Washington Post, and it says, “Intelligence officials tell us X, Y, and Z,” and they give them anonymity to make it seem like it's some edgy, unauthorized leak when in fact it's officially sanctioned leaks. That's what these journalists are. They’ve officially sanctioned tools of propaganda. The only people who are real journalists, or real transparency agents, you can recognize easily because those are the people the government tries to destroy, the media tries to destroy, including people like Julian Assange, who is now in prison. 

And now there's a website that you can go to where you can lend your name to what I think is the vital cause to drop the prosecution of Julian Assange. It's called https://dontextraditeassange.com/. That is a website that has been constructed by the people who are coordinating his defense. I really encourage you to do so. 

I'm not pretending here to be neutral. As a journalist, I think it is extraordinarily dangerous to create a precedent that allows the U.S. government to imprison Julian Assange. I'm in favor of transparency, not indiscriminate transparency. When I do journalism, like with the Snowden story or with the WikiLeaks story or the Brazil story, I don't just dump everything onto the Internet. I believe in curating it carefully so that the information that's published is what you need to see in order to know the truth about what your government is doing. But when there's reporting that exposes the lies that the government is telling you, especially about matters as fundamental as war or how your government is spying on you, the people who enable that are not criminals, they're heroes. And that most definitely includes Julian Assange. 

So, on the fourth anniversary of his imprisonment in a high-security, maximum-security, prison in the UK for the crime of doing real journalism, something unrecognizable these days, given the dominance of media corporations, I want to do everything I can to illuminate the reality of what has happened, which is why we devoted the show to it tonight. It also sheds a lot of light on what's occurring with this new leaker as well. But I also really want to encourage you not just to listen to what I say in terms of the reporting, not just to be informed, not just to be angry, not just to be outraged, but to do everything that you can to agitate for his liberation as well. Because ultimately, journalism is about serving the citizenry. It's about ensuring that, you know what the most powerful institutions are doing, not the lies and the propaganda that they feed you using our nation's largest media corporations. 


So that concludes our show for this evening because we did not do our live Locals show last night and we are out of time, we will be back next week with our live Locals show that follows this show on both Tuesday and Thursday, which we take your questions, respond to your feedback, and we'll listen to your suggestions about things we should cover or guess we should interview. Remember, we are available in podcast form. We encourage you to follow us there if you want to join our Locals community, which really helps our journalism and gives you access to the show’s transcripts that we publish every day after the show, as well as my journalism and other community figures. You can hit the red join button and become part of our Locals community. Thank you so much for making the show such a success. We hope to keep seeing you back here on Monday night and every night at 7 p.m. EST, exclusively here on Rumble. 

Have a great weekend, everybody. 

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Briahna Joy Gray on Dems in Disarray, the "Big Beautiful Bill," Biden Cover-Up Receipts and More; Plus: Interview with Journalist Katie Halper
System Update #461

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Glenn Greenwald is away this week. 

I’m Briahna Joy Gray, the guest host for this episode. 

You might know me from my own podcast, “Bad Faith,” or from my previous hosting responsibilities over at The Hill’s “Rising,” less of a free speech platform than this one. 

Today, I'll be walking through the implosion of the Democratic Party, the pathetic hunt for a Joe Rogan of the left, the party's instinct for corporate self-preservation over real populist reform and the media cover-up of Biden's cognitive decline. 

Afterward, I'll be joined by independent left podcaster and co-host of “Useful Idiots” podcast, Katie Halper, to continue the conversation about how the DNC is continuing to try to rig elections in favor of incumbents, even as they repeatedly keep dying in office, and the likelihood that there might be more independent third-party runs in 2028, a la RFK Jr.'s 2024 attempt. Now, let's get right into it. 

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For a decade now, corporate Democrats have been warning that Donald Trump presents an existential threat to the Republic. During Trump's first term, much of that handwriting seemed to be hyperbolic – Trump derangement syndrome, if you will. His big legislative accomplishment was in line with the policy priorities of your typical establishment Republican: a $1.7 trillion tax cut that went overwhelmingly to the rich.

There was some good stuff too: unlike Biden, he didn't start any new wars. While he continued to fund Israel's genocide in Gaza and crack down on free speech rights of Americans who protested the said genocide, Trump did accomplish the temporary cease-fire that AOC merely claimed Kamala was “working tirelessly” to achieve. 

But now that President Trump is finally following through on some of his less popular and less populist policy commitments, like the Medicaid cuts, included in his Big Beautiful Bill, which passed the House last week, or throwing markets into disarray with his erratic application of tariffs, which can be good policy.

Establishment Democrats seem almost happy to have something to justify their hatred of Trump. So, you see, the less populist Trump behaves, the more it disguises the Democrats' own failure to meet the needs of the people. Some Democrats are outright advising that the way they should respond to this alleged “existential crisis” is to simply do nothing: Just sit back and wait to benefit from the backlash. 

You don't have to take my word for it: Listen to a veteran DNC advisor, James Carville, describe the strategy: 

Video. James Carville, The View. February 18, 2025.

Fiddle while Rome burns, the expert says, then exploit the tragedy. 

But so far, the backlash isn't coming. A new Economist/YouGov poll, out yesterday, shows that while GOP favorability is low, at negative 11%, Democrats are doing even worse, at negative 21%; 41% of Americans still view Republicans favorably, while a mere 36% of Americans view Democrats favorably. 

These polls come as no surprise to those of us who consume independent media. I mean, just look around: Democrats are in the throes of a credibility crisis that arose out of Joe Biden's obvious unfitness to run for president. 

They're trying to distract from their complicity and the cover-up, but going all in on the idea that it was Biden himself, his family, and his closest advisors that hid his decline from the party and the public until it was too late, not the liberal media. But it's hard to call Biden's infirmary a “cover-up” when it was out in the public for all of us to see and comment on. The president was confusing Haifa and Rafah, mixing up the president of Egypt and the president of Mexico, and even dodged culpability in the classified documents case on the basis that he didn't have the mental competence to knowingly take the files. 

He even seemed to wander off at the G7 Conference a year ago, like a distracted child. 

Video. Joe Biden, The Economic Times. June 14, 2024.

His mental lapses were evident as far back as the 2020 primary, during which presidential candidates Julian Castro and Cory Booker had the temerity to call him out for not remembering what he had just said at the primary debate. This clip is from way back in 2019, when Dems still could have avoided the albatross of a historically old and declining candidate around their necks. What did they do instead? Disappear both Castro and Booker, once rising stars from the ranks of up-and-coming leadership. 

Video. Cory Booker, CNN. September 13, 2019.

You heard it there. The mainstream media accused anyone who noticed Biden's obvious decline of being motivated by Trump-like conservative politics. “Believe our Trump derangement syndrome, not your lying eyes,” they seem to say. 

Reuters reported the story about Biden wandering off at the G7 as “lacking context.” Meanwhile, his inability to finish sentences was “contextualized” as a mere stutter. 

Jake Tapper, one of the authors of the book “Original Sin,” which sheds light on the extent of Biden's mental infirmity, was himself one of the original apologists for Biden's cognitive decline. A few good mainstream pundits on MSNBC question the co-author on Tapper's own complicity. 

Video. Alex Thompson, MSNBC, May 26, 2025.

That was some good questioning. And I got to say, I don't think we need medical degrees to be able to accurately observe what was going on with Joe Biden. We didn't need this new book to know the truth either. Independent media, along with the voters, knew what was been going on for years. 

Biden's midterm rating was worse than any other elected president on record and, back in August 2023, polls show that 77% of Americans, including 69% of Democrats, thought Biden was too old to be president. But Democrats wouldn't listen. Or rather, they simply didn't care. 

Now, as part of the media's effort to whitewash its own complicity, the same media figures who were involved in the cover-up are claiming, well, they had to defend Biden's mental competency because no one else primaried him. They were stuck with him as a candidate. This, even as the party shut down the possibility of a primary from the jump. 

Contrast former DNC chair, Jamie Harrison, making that incredible claim that anyone could have primaried Biden if they wanted to, followed by Biden/Harris spokesperson turned MSNBC “journalist,” Symone Sanders, proclaiming that under no circumstances will there be a primary. 

Video. Jaime Harrisson, Symone Sander, MSNBC. 

“If folks wanted to primary Joe Biden, there was nobody to tell them that they couldn't?” Is he serious? The mendacity is frankly shocking. As Symone admitted, Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson did throw their hats in the ring, as said RFK Jr., and you can hear how much respect they got for doing so reflected in Symone's smite tone and her inability to pronounce Marianne's name. Then don't forget, RFK Jr. also ran as a Democrat before the party pushed about and it's no surprise why he left the Dems.

 The Democratic Party, its pundits and politicians, were simply all behind Joe Biden, no matter how ill-fated his electoral chances were from the get-go. And while they want to memory hole their role in setting Dems up to fail, I have the receipts. 

Take “Pod Save America,” one of the most popular liberal podcasts in the country. These former Obama speech writers turned media moguls finally admitted that Biden wasn't fit to lead after Biden's disastrous debate with Trump. But the hindsight is 2020. Listen to how hostile they were in conversation with moderate primary candidate, Democrat Dean Phillips, when he joined their show during the primary season that wasn't. 

Video. Phillips, Pod Save America. November 20, 2023.

Phillips and I do not share the same politics, but he was right. At a certain point, internal polls show that Biden could not win. According to “Original Sin,” the Jake Tapper book, Biden traded trails rather in every battleground state, and the race that tightened in states he won comfortably back in 2020. But the voters don't matter, the polls don't matter, not to Democrats. What matters to the Democratic Party elites is who they choose to top the ticket. 

As Bernie Sanders’s former national press secretary in 2020, I know this all too well. In two back-to-back election cycles, the Democratic Party ignored polls that showed Bernie was more electable than Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden against Donald Trump. 

Now, this is not some Monday morning quarterbacking from a disgruntled leftist. Democratic Party insider Donna Brazile admitted the primary was rigged back in 2017.

Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson admit as much in “Original Sin.”  They admit it! The election was rigged. But even with all of the faux mea culpas happening around Biden's lack of mental fitness, the Democrats STILL refuse to act any differently going forward, to learn a lesson from their past mistakes. Tapper and Thompson write that Bernie was perceived to be unable to attract Black voters, but Bernie was the only candidate in 2020 who matched Biden's popularity with that group, while also outstripping the field when it came to Latino voters

Bernie remains popular. Not only have he and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez been turning out tens of thousands of voters across the country during their anti-oligarchy tour, including in deep red states. Bernie's recent appearance on the “Flagrant” podcast, with Andrew Schultz, had a whole room of popular podcast “Bros” clamoring for the exact “democratic socialism” establishment Dems insisted would turn off the public!

Everybody's saying it. Look, it seems obvious that left populism is the way for Democrats to push back against Trump's right populism, which unfortunately, is increasingly informed by the tech billionaires that fund his campaign rather than the working-class real populists who voted him into office. You've got to ask yourself, is pardoning reality TV stars convicted of tax fraud really improving your ability to support your family? 

What about growing the military budget (and the deficit) at the same time while cutting special education funding? 

What about shifting wealth from the bottom 60% of working-age households to the top income brackets? 

Look, no matter what your politics are, two parties that are competing for the support of working-class Americans instead of aligning with corrupt billionaires would be a good thing! But you can't convince someone of something they're paid not to understand. Which is why Democrats are, instead of embracing popular policies like Medicare for all or a tax on billionaires, are choosing to spend millions of dollars to figure out how to, get this, speak to American men. I really wish I were kidding here.

You really can't make this stuff up. Dems are obsessed with finding the Joe Rogan of the left, but they could not be barking up a wronger tree. 

Hilariously, they seem to be tapping one of their most insidious surrogates, Oliva Juliana, to “message better” on men while continuing to treat Sanders – the man who was literally endorsed by the actual Joe Rogan back in 2020 – as a pariah. 

Video. James Carville, The Daily Beast. May 2025.

To be clear, Carville hasn't won an election since Bill Clinton in the ‘90s, but I digress. 

The reason why Democrats’ mission to find their own Joe Rogan will fail is obvious: to be a credible interlocutor in the political space, you have to be willing to say the true thing when it's hard, even when it is critical of your party. Especially when it's critical of your party. The popular “Manosphere” podcaster, Andrew Schultz, gets it. 

Video. Andrew Schultz, Flagrant.  May 28, 2025.

Even on MSNBC, a guest of Ayman's show was also able to identify the core issue here. 

Video. Ayman Mohyeldin, MSNBC. May 24, 2025.

See, right there at the end is a great summary of the impossibility of what Democrats think they're going to achieve. “We need an authentic voice that's going to become popular organically, and we need to control them.” 

Good luck with that, Democrats. Good luck with that. 

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Briahna Joy Gray: Back with Katie Halper. You know her from the “Katie Halper” podcast and as co-host of “Useful Idiots” with Aaron Maté. Welcome to System Update. 

Katie Halper: Thanks, Brie. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Katie, it's a pleasure. I can't wait to pick your brain about some of the viral clips, especially from the sort of Manosphere podcast arena that have gone viral precisely because of how well Bernie Sanders himself and his ideas have translated into his sphere, that Democrats have insisted were so right-wing and so far gone, and they spent so many years vilifying but now seem to be trying to enter into those kinds of spaces. What do you make of it? 

Katie Halper: I think it's funny because, of course, Bri, not to be self-promoting, but they're searching for the – what is it? – left-wing Joe Rogan. What about Briahna Joy Gray and Katie Halper to take the mantle? 

It is ironic that the same people who were throwing Bernie under the bus, smearing him, attacking him, are now saying that he has some kind of messaging that's good for the democrats. There's always this obsession with messaging over content and program, but that's kind of another issue. 

I think people continue to smear Bernie Sanders but to the extent that they are praising him, they're praising him now because they know he's not going to run. So, I think they think it's safe for them to praise his ideas because they actually are either just paying lip service to it or they are afraid of Bernie's more progressive stances that challenge the status quo. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yeah. I think that really gets to the core of the issue that the Democratic Party for years has managed to try to frame themselves as somehow different than the establishment wing of the Republican Party, despite having, substantively, the same corporate donors by leaning and going all in on identity politics.

There's been a backlash against that. They're saying, okay, well, now we've got to find some other messaging prong when the whole reason why they went all in on identity politics and now we're going all in this idea that they just get the right man who's lift enough weights to say the right thing that they will also be able to compete, it's because they're allergic, their corporate base makes them allergic to actually advancing the kind of ideas that made Bernie popular in the first place acting like this guy was somehow a ball of charisma as much as I liked his sort of like a grumpy straightforward persona. He wasn't winning hearts and minds because he was a charm generator. It was because, as Joe Rogan himself said when he was endorsing Bernie Sanders back in 2020, he's a man who's been saying the same thing for the last 40 years, and he has credibility. He's trustworthy. And it's amazing to rewatch that endorsement now that the Democrats are in the middle of this incredible credibility crisis. 

I want to ask you specifically about this book, “Original Sin,” by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson. I don't know if you had seen that clip before, that super cut that Ayman put together on MSNBC of Jake Tapper doing exactly what is sort of criticized in this book, although I will say this book stays away mostly from media criticism and focuses on the idea that it was Biden in his inner circle that knew the truth and were just lying to everybody else and everybody else was sort of deceived by them, including the liberal media. What do you make of that sort of framing there? Is Jake Tapper really innocent in all of this? 

Katie Halper: I mean, I joke that Jake Tapper was well-positioned to write a book about a cover-up because he participated in the cover-up. So, he does probably have some inside knowledge and real insight into it. But no, I mean, you alluded to this and the mashup that I'm in proves this. Jake Tapper was doing the exact kind of cover-up and running of interference that you and I have commented on the media doing for Joe Biden, for the DNC, for centrist Democrats, that we know that they do, they love to do. And so, it is rich seeing someone who participated in that cover-up profiting off of a book about a cover-up and he's hawking that product on his shows and on the various CNN shows that he appears on and all the appearances he's been doing. And I think at the end, once again, it's fine for people to have the eureka moments in hindsight. Somehow, it never happens in real time. And he keeps making these media appearances and talking about how he has a great humility, and his co-writer talks about the humility, which is, I guess, as close as to a mea culpa that we'll get, but that's not, I'm always so frustrated when people say humility like they always do these humble brags. I'm truly humbled by, insert whatever praise, so that's just a little pet peeve I have with that word. 

But, yeah, I think that Jake Tapper, like much of the media, keeps making the same mistakes. They're warmongers for every war. I mean, the cover-up, is disgusting but another disgusting thing is that he has spread so many lies about Palestinians and has run so much interference, much like he ran so much interference for the Biden campaign, he's running so much interference for IDF and he and Dana Bash have done such a disgusting job at vilifying Palestinians, Palestinian Americans like Rashida Tlaib, but all Palestinians, and taking every single rumor and fabricating a narrative and running with it and never correcting it. 

Tapper and Dana Bash pushed the mass rape Hamas narrative that has been totally debunked; they've never corrected it and, at the same time, they've ever once acknowledged the fact that there's video footage of Israeli soldiers raping a Palestinian,  – what I would call hostage, what our media calls prisoner or detainee, but I think, to be consistent we should say hostage – and it's one thing to push a debunked narrative and never correct it, but at least acknowledge the fact that we do know of people who are raped by Israelis, but the fact they don't acknowledge that and that this is something that mainstream Israeli media covers shows that they really don't care about sexual violence. They don't about rape and they're happy to be doing PR for a genocidal state. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yeah, I think it's a really…

Katie Halper: Sorry, we're talking about cover-ups, but they're related. 

Briahna Joy Gray: No, I think that's a really important point because there is something deeply ironic and dissonant about Jake Tapper in particular. I don't know that Alex Thompson and it could be similarly described as hypocritical, but Jake Tapper for sure, go doing the press rounds about a cover-up while still actively participating in a misinformation campaign, at least as significant as the lies about the Steele dossier or claiming that Hunter Biden's laptop was misinformation. I mean, someone else had another super cut sort of juxtaposing what he's saying now about Hunter Biden with what he said back then about Hunter Biden and framing any and every criticism of Joe Biden or just observation from people who actually love Joe Biden, that doesn't seem to be up to his best, he's not the same Joe Biden who was vice president back in 2008/2012 cycles, as somehow being Trumpy as though supporting Donald Trump, even if that were your perspective, precludes you from seeing the truth with your own eyes. And Katie, this is what's so frustrating about Democrats, and frankly, my concern with some folks on the left who seem to be taking this sort of measured praise for the enthusiasm Bernie and AOC are capturing on these anti-oligarchy tours and predicting that there's going to be real change to the Democratic Party this time, how optimistic are you that we're likely to see the Democrats learning from the lessons of the past? And if not, why aren't you optimistic? 

Katie Halper: Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that, unfortunately, the Democrats would really rather lose to Trump than have someone like Bernie in power. But you're asking a slightly different question, right? You're kind of saying, well, what suggests that the Democrats will deliver anything, even with this good messaging that Bernie and AOC are bringing? And certainly, they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to Gaza, but, sure, on economic issues, Bernie, especially, is excellent. 

I think that the problem is, and you've spoken a lot about this, Bri, it's great to have fresh ideas, fresh policies, fresh but also consistent. I mean, as you alluded to earlier, Bernie's been saying the same thing for decades and that is something that I think has endears him justifiably to lots of people. But the question is, will the Democratic Party actually allow for any of these policies to take hold? [audio problems]

So, there's a lot of rotating villain phenomenon, right? 

So, I think that the Democrats really love to pretend that they can't get things done, that they'd love to get things done. But the truth is they just don't want to get them done. They don't want to see these things because they're as beholden to their donors as the Republicans are, they're just better on social issues often. And to the extent that they're better on social issues, they certainly are willing to sacrifice these social issues in the name of fundraising, which is why, for instance, neither Obama nor Biden codified Roe v. Wade. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yeah. I’m glad you brought up Roe v. Wade because I have more optimistic folks, left side of the aisle saying, “Oh, no, this didn't waste strategy, whatever you think of it, it's likely to work” because look at how well Joe Biden did in midterms.” And I think in retrospect, and I think some of us at the time reported that we suspected that there was not a red wave in 2022, it was not a signal that voters were actually secretly happy with Joe Biden. Polls at the time showed, as I said in my radar, that he had historically low favorability at that time. What people were coming out to vote for was not Joe Biden; it was for Roe v. Wade. It was to express their discontent with Roe being overturned and anti-abortion laws being put into effect in all the country. And a lot of red states like Kansas, bipartisan majorities came out to defend those kinds of formerly constitutional rights. 

I want to ask you, though, about this particular clip where Chuck Todd, even someone who is very much an establishment pundit, seems to think and maybe even seems to hope that there will, unlike 2024, when the Democrats completely shut down a primary, that there will not just be a primary, but that there'll be independent third-party style candidates, a la RFK Jr., running in that race. Let's take a look. 

Video. Chuck Todd, The Chuck Toddcast. May 27, 2025.

Briahna Joy Gray: I don't even know where to start with that, Katie. Why a military guy? Why this Bill McRaven person, who apparently is the former chancellor of the University of Texas system? And why the optimism that we're going to have someone operating outside of the two-party system, from this person who is very much an establishment pundit? 

Katie Halper: Right. And who really, I think, took part in a mocking of third-party candidates that so much of the corporate media took part in. I think that it's interesting you asked about why it has to be a military figure. And I think this speaks to how much the media and our political elites are so obsessed with optics and messaging and so inattentive to substance. So, it's not about what this person's going to offer. It's not about the changes that they're going to bring to people's lives in any qualitative or meaningful way. It's about whether they can tap into people's, I don't know, like, crushes on military figures or tap into our militaristic society. It does have a bizarre obsession, I think, with optics that, again, I think is because no one who is powerful, no political or media elites actually want to see real changes. So, they just want to have kind of like different presentations that get people excited, but nobody wants to see the actual changes happen. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yes. It’s a different kind of identity politics. It's the same thing as, like, yeah, like the Joe Rogan of the left thing. It's like they think that they can find a podcaster who lifts enough weights. I guess that's why we're just disqualified Katie. We're not, we don't lift heavy… 

Katie Halper: Yeah, I know. I do a lot of repetition of light weights, right? 

Briahna Joy Gray: Right. It's totally vibe-based. 

Now look, of course, there is a, like a substantive claim for having a veteran, but I think it also misses the mainstream pundits' missing how much we are in a sort of anti-interventionist/isolationist/anti-war moment in both parties. And that's exactly why someone like Trump, who definitely ran as an anti-interventionist and didn't start any new wars, at least in his first term, was so popular. So them saying a military guy, I mean, I think someone like Matthew Ho, who ran on the Green Party for a Senate in North Carolina some years back, could be exactly that kind of guy because he served and learned from his service exactly why we shouldn't be sending troops to fight pointless wars and ruining lives all because young kids see no other avenue to access things like healthcare and a quality education. That could be your guide, but we know Chuck Todd isn't going to throw his hat in behind a Green Party leftist, kind of Bernie-style candidate like Matthew Ho. 

Katie Halper: Right. I mean, I think you're right that it would be great to have a military figure who was anti-war. I mean those are extremely powerful voices and they have a lot of credibility and, of course, more importantly they're anti-war which is something that wins votes, but also is obviously good for the planet and good for all people on the planet, except for people who work in the arms industry and people who support genocide. 

But I think that it is interesting to see people again, the very same people, who, I mean, I think it was Chuck Todd who said Bernie Sanders would get “hammered and sickled,” he actually said that to him, see them act poetic about working outside of the duopoly. They acknowledge that the two-party system doesn't work, but what were they doing except for running interference for this two-party system? 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yeah, absolutely. And just as the final nail in the coffin, which is perhaps a metaphor, now that I said it out loud, that's in poor taste. If we pull up the graphic, a significant number of Democrats who have quite literally died in office, a margin that would have prevented the Democrats or enabled the Democrats to block the passage of Biden's big, beautiful budget bill in the House had they stayed alive. 

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Now, remember, DNC vice chair David Hogg got an enormous amount of pushback simply saying you wanted to start a pack that funded challengers to incumbents, observing accurately that younger members of the party like AOC and people who are outsiders like Bernie Sanders are the ones that have managed to capture whatever energy is left in the husk of the Democrat Party. And for that, Democrat elites have rallied the ranks to literally push him out of his position at the DNC and are frankly using sort of identity politics as a lever to get him out. Even as Democrats are unable to whip sufficient votes to block win priorities, precisely because their members are so old and enfeebled that they are quite literally dying in office. What do you make of it? 

Katie Halper: Yeah, I mean, of course, the final nail in the coffin was the perfect turn of phrase. But what better represents the narcissism and selfishness and moribund nature of the Democrats than the way that they are refusing to resign? Because, again, the Democrats are constantly fearmongering – and I want to be clear, I mean, Trump is something to be feared. I mean, he's not an anti-war candidate. He is terrible for many reasons.  The Democrats often criticize him for the things that aren't even that bad, which is another irony. But they say he's an existential threat, he's a fascist and yet if they're so worried about this, why don't they retire so that they have a better chance of having someone from the Democratic Party who can vote against his bill? I mean literally, his bill passed because Democrats refused to resign despite having been very sick or old. It reminds me also of the way that if Kamala Harris cared so much about defeating Trump, if this was the most important election ever, then why didn't she listen to the base, which was clamoring for her to depart from Biden on several issues and most notably on Gaza. We know now from someone who worked with her, it was because she didn't want to be rude, and it's not, it's gauche to depart from your president's policies when you're the running mate. 

We also know that Joe Biden said, I don't want any daylight between us, kid. And so, for Biden, his legacy, much like these Democrats who are dying in office, their legacies are more important than defeating Trump and Trumpism or helping the people that they claim to serve. For Kamala, I guess, ruffling feathers was more important– or not upsetting donors, or not being able to run around with Liz Cheney, or not incurring the wrath of AIPAC. So, it just belies the whole claim that this is something that is an existential threat. 

I think that I mean we are facing existential threats. We're facing existential threats that neither party is willing to deal with, especially when it comes to climate change. But it's very hard to convince people that you're taking this seriously as an existential threat when you don't do the minimal things needed to either win an election or prevent a Republican from taking your seat in the case of people who are not resigning. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yeah, it's really hard, frankly, to see in concurrent election cycles the voting population stand up and clearly, clearly be clamoring for a legitimate, sincere populism. I mean, the outrage around inflation, cost of living, housing prices, gas prices, food prices, education prices. These are the sectors that are driving inflation and which are causing life to be so precarious for so many Americans and it's nice now that Democrats are like acknowledging that economic precarity, economic anxiety is a real thing because for I don't know like eight years after the 2015-2016 cycle they acted if you said well yeah people voted for Trump because of economic anxiety they said that oh that's just racism that's just a synonym for racism we won't take that argument so now they're finally embracing it and trying to say we're going to do a Joe Rogan sort of a situation. But again, they're not backing any of those policies. You're still getting Democrats out here arguing against baseline things like raising the minimum wage, which hasn't been raised since Bush was in office. The longest period without a minimum wage raise since it was invented in like the 1930s.

And meanwhile, Americans are struggling. So this huge lane is opening up. Meanwhile, on the right side of the aisle, I think people who voted for Donald Trump in good faith hoping that he was going to follow the sort of banded wing of his party and do real economic populism are seeing that Bannon is engaged in a battle with the other wing of the party that frankly bought the election, the tech wing, the Elon Musk's, the Marc Andreessen's, the folks who are very openly saying, “We need to do AI, we need to put the public out of business, we're going to make all of these arguments that legitimize defunding the welfare state that so many Americans, including so many American in very low-income red states in the South and elsewhere, are relying upon to survive.”

And we can do that because we literally bought this election. And I'm afraid that that tech wing, the billionaire wing, who has no alignment and interest with the working-class in this country, most of whom are frankly not even American or relatively recent transplants are going to win out and it's going to be too late for a genuine populism to actually restore a democracy that reflects people's values. What do you think? 

Katie Halper: I think it's a justifiable fear. And I think what you're saying it really does ring true. Again, we've seen in the cases of the leadership of both parties, we have seen a real embrace of anti-populism, right? And one of the most frustrating things was to see people equate Bernie Sanders with Donald Trump because there's a big difference between actual populism and pseudo populism, just like there's a big difference between being anti-war and being pseudo-anti-war. And Trump is great at appealing to populist sentiments. But of course, he's not someone who cares about the working class, the middle class. He is someone who, in some ways, is more dangerous than traditional Republicans because he talks a good talk. He knows how to sound like he's a populist. He knows how to sound like he's against the status quo. But of course, in some ways, the most dangerous thing to have is someone who substantively is status quo, but performatively and stylistically is not. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Yeah, it is interesting to see float things like, we’re going to do a tax on the rich, right? But then walk it back. And you can read that in a couple of different ways. You can say Donald Trump is just a bad faith actor. He never met in the first place, or you can write it as, well, he actually is the one who's got a good sense of what the wind is blowing and what the base wants. And maybe he would be happy to do a little bit. He's a billionaire himself.  I wouldn't take it too far that he was willing, would be willing to do too redistributive justice to return the hard working, increased productivity of the working-classes back into their pockets the way that it was 50 years ago or so before a bunch of laws redistributed it to the very top, including Trump's own 2017 tax cuts. I won't take it too far, but there's a way you could read it that says, well, maybe Trump did get a sense that you need bread and roses. You need to get the masses a little bit to keep them on your team and that the corporate interests within his own party won't even let him do the bare minimum. And so, it's not clear to me how much there is a real war between the Steve Bannon's who seem to be more genuinely committed to working-class politics, even if it's also mixed in with sort of a nativism and some other unsavory aspects that I personally don't agree with. And this is like the raw, open, we don't need workers anymore. We're going to do AI, we're going to feed you cricket slop and you're going to like it, we don't even need humanity, we're to be on the moon types. And like my concern, I don't know how to read it, but if I had to pick, I would much rather the Steve Bannon's – I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would rather the Steve Bannon’s wing of the Republican Party went out. The problem is the Steve Banning wing of the Republican Party didn't spend half a billion dollars electing Donald Trump. 

Katie Halper: Right. And I think he also doesn't appeal to certain segments, demographically speaking, who are very powerful. I mean, again, I think that it is kind of a funny thing to say, I hope that Steve Bannon wins. But of course, I do think that populists, you can work across the aisle with economic populists on certain issues, whereas there's nothing you can work with Elon Musk types about, right? They are scarier in many ways, and their policies are scarier, and there's very little overlap between the populist left and the populist right, to the extent that you can even have a populist right. But yeah, certainly I think that the Elon Musk wing is more frightening than the, I mean, they're both frightening, but yeah, I guess if. I mean, Bri, you're not someone who likes the lesser of two evils, but maybe that's the furthest I can say is that Steve Bannon is the lesser of two evils when it comes to the Bannon wing or the Elon Musk wing. 

Briahna Joy Gray: Amen to that. I can't disagree, Katie. I really appreciate your willingness to talk through some of this with me. This was cathartic for me because watching all of this happen in real time has been difficult. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it with you, talk about it here on Glenn's amazing platform, and to continue to follow the Democrats' self-destruction cycle and incredible cope over their complicity and the great Biden cover-up. Thank you, Katie.

Katie Halper: Thank you, Thanks, Bri. Thanks Glenn.

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Glenn Takes Your Questions on the Trump Admin's War with Harvard, Fallout from Wednesday's DC Killing, and More; Plus: Lee Fang on Epstein's Dark Legacy in the USVI
System Update #460

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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Tonight: There was major news this week, and we always try to devote our Friday night show to covering as much of that as possible, both through our “Week in Review” segment as well as the Q&A session, where we take questions from our Locals members and get to as many of them as we can. As always, we have a wide range of very probing questions from our followers on Locals – I'd expect nothing less from my viewers – and we'll try to answer as many of those as we can. 

Before we do that, we talk to the friend of the show, the intrepid independent journalist, Lee Fang, about numerous issues this week, including a new article he published on his Substack which investigates how officials in the Virgin Islands, where Jeffrey Epstein's notoriously bought that island, have been fraudulently profiting from victim funds and the residue from his presence. 

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Our guest tonight to help us go over some news events of the week as well as some investigative reporting that he has published this week, is a good friend of the show the independent journalist I've worked with at The Intercept, who has been published in many places now. He has one of the best Substack pages in the country where he does his investigative journalism and commentaries, Lee Fang.  

G. Greenwald: Lee, it’s always great to see you. 

Lee Fang: Hey Glenn, great to see you. Thanks for having me. 

G. Greenwald: Yeah, so I want to start with the murder of these two Israeli embassy officials in Washington. We did a whole show on it last night, but the fallout sort of continues. 

I don't think we need to go into the question of whether there was any moral justness to these murders. I don't think any moral framework that I at least I recognize as valid suggests that anything other than unjust and horrific but there are a lot of attempts to exploit these murders beyond just expressing grief for the victims or condemnation for the shooter, including, essentially, immediately attempting to suggest that anyone who criticizes Israel or its war in Gaza in some sort of harsh way, or over some imaginary arbitrary line, is responsible for the killing as much as the shooter is, if not more so, and therefore we need to do something about that because that's spawning antisemitism and endangerment for Jews. What's your reaction to all that? 

Lee Fang: Look, I'm concerned about the kind of creeping martyrdom politics that have been coming into our system really for the last few decades. We see it more and more escalating on both the far left and the far right, whether it's far left activists seizing upon every kind of video of a police killing to make broad assumptions about the American criminal justice system and to engage in riots and calls for abolishing police, whether the far right who grab hold of any kind of immigrant crime or immigrant murder to say that we need to deport all immigrants or engage in some kind of draconian crackdown on immigrants. 

Now, we see this kind of increasingly in our Israel-Palestine debate where partisans are seizing upon this heinous crime that happened just a few days ago and really weaponizing it to engage in some type of collective punishment for their political opposition to claim all people who support peace in Palestine, justice or equal rights in that region, are somehow guilty of violence, that this act of political violence reflects on every American who supports peace or a cease-fire in Gaza. I mean, it's a little bit absurd, but it's kind of a continuation of this cycle of saying we want collective punishment on our political enemies, we want to weaponize any kind of tragic death into a partisan football, or just or partisan cudgel, to beat our political opponents. 

G. Greenwald: I actually started noticing it for the first time, I think, back in like 2005, 2006, right when I created my blog, started writing about politics. At the time, there was this blogger who was very pro-War on Terror, like very much of the view that we are at war with Islam after 9/11. Ironically, he became a sort of liberal resistance. His name was Charles Johnson. He wrote a blog called The Little Green Footballs. And one of the things he would do every day when he was in like his War on Terror fanatical stage was he had a daily occurring segment or a weekly occurring segment and he would title it “Religion of Peace” and he just published some sort of random robbery or burglary or assault or rape or violent crime that some Muslim somewhere in the world engaged in and thought that because he was constantly doing it, it was somehow making this point about Muslims in general being a menace. 

Obviously, you can do that to any race. You could do that to black people, you could do that to white people, you could do that to Christians, you could do that with Muslims, you can do that to Jews. When I recently was condemning or objecting to Matt Walsh, who went on Tucker Carlson to say it's better to leave kids in foster care and orphanages than to allow them to be adopted by same sex couples, I remember all these people replying to me, would show me stories about gay men molesting children and for everyone that they could show me, I could show them 20+ uncles molesting nieces at the age of five or some father molesting his daughter. It's such a stupid obviously, fallacious way to try to demonize a certain group of people and, obviously, the minute something like last night happens, we're supposed to believe that anyone now who condemns the war in Gaza is somehow a homicidal maniac or wants to kill Jews or wants to be antisemitic even though you can find literally every day Israel supporters in the United States saying the most nauseating things about Gazans. 

I mean, you can find Israeli officials in the last week saying Gazan babies are enemies because they grow up to be terrorists; “There's no such thing as innocent Gazans,” one official said we should segregate all the women and babies and children in Gaza and put them on one side and then put all the men 13 and above, so “13-year-old men,” they were calling them, and put then on another side and just execute all the men. It's such sophistry to try to argue this way, and yet it's done so often. 

Lee Fang: All connects back to my previous point that these are emotional arguments. They're not logical, they're not rational, they're certainly not empirical. It's very emotionally arresting when you see one of these police shooting videos. Often, they're without context, but even if the cop was in the wrong and was doing something unjust, that doesn't reflect on the millions of police-civilian interactions and all the thousands of different police jurisdictions that have completely different rules in training people will make sweeping assumptions about American policing after one of these very emotional videos. The same for an immigrant killing an American. You can see why someone could say that's unjust. This person was not supposed to be there, they're guests in our home and they're out killing or raping individuals, therefore, all immigrants are criminals or dangerous. It's that type of argument, and it's just being driven into overdrive with social media, with the kind of incentives around war. 

You have very well-financed pro-Israel advocacy groups. It's not just AIPAC, the super PAC and lobbying group, but dozens of other pro-Israel advocacy groups spending tens of millions of dollars per year pushing the U.S. foreign policy in one direction. So, for them to have this very tragic event that they can weaponize and use against their political opponents, they continue this push so that the U.S. stands in lockstep support of the Israeli government. Of course, that's what they'll do, but this is kind of an escalation we've seen in society over many years. It's just this dynamic that is very tribal, that is crude. It kind of appeals to the most basic instinct among us, and it really should be rejected. 

There are some principled Israel supporters and conservatives who have spoken out against this attempt to weaponize these tragic events, but it's really disappointing seeing people from across the board taking this and just saying, “We should have more censorship. We should support crackdowns on students. We should restrict speech. We should really support ethnic cleansing in Gaza because of it.” It is absurd. 

G. Greenwald: What makes it so much worse is, let's say, over the past decade, but especially as this kind of left-wing cultural war reached its apex with the word zenith, depending on your perspective with things like Me Too and then the Black Lives Matter riots of the fall of 2019, or 2020. Just then, the kind of wave that produced, of all sorts of language controls, taking premises to these completely preposterous conclusions. Most conservatives, in fact, almost by definition, were vehemently opposed to these sorts of victimhood narratives, these group-based grievances, these attempts to curb speech in the name that it made people uncomfortable or incited violence against them. And most of them, not all, but most of them, have now done an exact 180. 

All day yesterday, you heard people saying things like “There's systemic racism against Jews,” “Your speeches inciting antisemitism and bigotry.” Who knew that Donald Trump would be elected, and, within the first four months, his main cause and the main cause of his movement would be to declare a racism epidemic all around the world and the need to control speech to prevent it and protect these minority groups? 

It sounds very familiar, but just from a different direction. One of the people who was most vehemently opposed to this sort of left-wing oppression is Steven Pinker who was a very well-known biologist at Harvard and also a very vocal supporter of Israel but a very vocal critic of this sort of left-wing repression that has appeared on campuses and elsewhere. He has an article in The New York Times today that I thought was super interesting because it's also in the context of this attack by the Trump administration on Harvard and he said: “[…] For what it’s worth, I have experienced no antisemitism in my two decades at Harvard, and nor have other prominent Jewish faculty members. […] (The New York Times, May 23, 2025.)

So, we're talking here about this epidemic. I was reading some people yesterday, who were Jewish people in media, Jake Sherman was one, there were others, saying, “It's incredibly terrifying to be a Jew in America.” Not only did I live in the United States for, I think, 37 years, as an American Jew, and I'm there all the time. I've never once experienced an antisemitic assault or comments or anything like that, nor has anyone I know, and yet you're hearing this kind of wildly exaggerated set of claims about how Jews are endangered. 

So, he says: “My own discomfort instead is captured in a Crimson essay by the Harvard senior Jacob Miller, who called the claim that one in four Jewish students feels “physically unsafe” on campus “an absurd statistic I struggle to take seriously as someone who publicly and proudly wears a kippah around campus each day.” […] (The New York Times May 23, 2025.)

So that's not just a Jewish person, that's someone who wears a Kippah around campus every day and he's saying it's preposterous that people are saying there's some epidemic of antisemitism at Harvard. 

I mean, what he's basically saying there is that everything I thought I was supporting, fighting against when it was coming from the left, these group-based narratives, this attempt to restrict speech, this is a wild exaggeration of the danger of certain minority groups in the United States is now being flooding our discourse, from Israel supporters, he's making the point that it just sounds extremely familiar to him, but from the other direction. 

Lee Fang: Yeah, I mean, everything he's describing is pretty much accurate. The tools of wokeness that these kinds of studies claim astronomical levels of bigotry in society, you look back at 2020, a lot of Asian American groups claimed that anti-Asian hate crimes were skyrocketing. 

G. Greenwald: What was the name of that group? Stop Asian Hate? 

Lee Fang: Stop Asian Hate, yes, which was a spin out of Chinese for Affirmative Action. But this group, if you look carefully in their kind of footnotes of how they were quantifying anti-Asian hate, they were taking tweets that were critical of the lab leak theory or floating the lab leak theory that the COVID-19 virus might have come from Wuhan, China, and other kind of China critical tweets as examples of anti-Asian American hate crimes. So, they were grouping actual forms of violence, where, a lot of times, you don't know the intent. Perhaps someone of one race attacked someone else of another race. Is that a hate crime? It's context-dependent, but they were taking a broad brush on those. Then, they were juicing the numbers by taking tweets of something that they claimed was hateful, but turned out to be just a true fact, or likely a true fact, that the virus escaped from a bioweapons lab in China. 

Now, for the antisemitism kind of crisis or hysteria that we're in today, you look at the ADL and other pro-Israel advocacy groups at these studies that show a 300%, 500%, 1,000% increase in antisemitism. You look at the footnotes, and it's the exact same dynamic. It's folks who are critical of Israel in a completely neutral way, saying they just disagree with Israel's policies. That's deemed now antisemitic: groups like Jewish Voices for Peace, a Jewish-led leftist group that is critical of Israel's policies, holding rallies around the country. Each of these rallies in the ADL's report is tagged as an antisemitism hate event. So, that's how they're quantifying this gigantic, skyrocketing antisemitism problem. 

This would be laughably absurd if it weren't being weaponized and used by our government to crack down on speech and to defund science and medical research at universities around the country, but that's exactly what's happening. The Trump administration is citing these statistics and similar statistics when they're going after Harvard University and other universities, when they are cutting federal funding and when attempting to impose speech codes like the IHRA definition of antisemitism, which redefines antisemitism to include some criticism of Israel, and it's part of this kind of an investigation of Harvard around civil rights violations.

I mean if you zoomed out and just looked at the evidence, any normal person would laugh it off; any kind of ordinary person looking at what's been assembled as supposed examples of antisemitism are, you know, either incredibly minor or absolutely manufactured. And yet, this is the crisis that we're living in today. I wouldn't defend Harvard University on almost any other grounds. This is a school that acts like a hedge fund, that's accumulated huge amounts, that has deplatformed speakers in the past, that is kind of a platform for privilege, for billionaire donors to at times donate and get their kids into the school, and has engaged in some racial discrimination in the past, although the recent Supreme Court rulings on affirmative action have kind of rolled that back. Yet this current Trump administration attack, demanding that the school create safe spaces for Jewish students, create speech codes, preventing students from criticizing or even discussing Israeli policies, even getting rid of some of their departments that study the Middle East or study Israel's history or Palestinian history, I mean, it just kind of shocks  that they're doing this with absolutely no evidence. 

G. Greenwald: I mean, the idea that Harvard is some place that's hostile to Jews is almost as funny as that time the ADL issued a statement saying it's time for Hollywood to include Jews in their pro-diversity policies because Jews have been excluded for long enough from Hollywood and you just can't believe it's even being said. 

By the way, the thing that you mentioned about COVID drove me very crazy at the time and to this very day when I think about it, it still drives me crazy, which was It was really the Lancet letter, the proximal causes, notorious Lancet Letter that decreed well before they had any idea if it was remotely true what they were saying, that we know for certain that COVID came from the zoonotic leap, from animal to human, and that any attempt to suggest that it came from a lab leak in Wuhan was essentially racist and like an attack on our Chinese colleagues or whatever. Then, it immediately became canon that anyone who even raised the possibility that it might've come from a lab leak was being racist against Chinese people. 

The New York Times COVID reporter who became the COVID reporter when the real COVID reporter got fired because he said some things that upset a bunch of very wealthy teenagers whose parents paid for them to go on a field trip to Peru or something with him and they were offended by what he said, and so he got fired. So, they put this woman in, and she said one day we're going to grapple with the fact that this lab leak theory is racist, but I guess today is not the day. 

One always drove me so crazy about this. Besides the fact that who cares what theory was racist about where COVID came from? Like, all that mattered was what the truth was? Who cares which theory was more racist? It was like, where did it actually come from? But the idea that it was somehow more racist to say that COVID came from a highly sophisticated research lab in Wuhan, funded and partnered with the United States than saying, “Oh, Chinese people have these disgusting, filthy, primitive eating habits where they consume these filthy bats in wet markets and therefore got the coronavirus because they were the ones who were just eating things they shouldn't,” like the far more racist theory was the one they were insisting on, to this day insist on. It just always drove me crazy. Of course, the overwhelming evidence now is that it did come from that lab leak funded by the United States. 

All right, let me ask you about this article you wrote in your Substack

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So, I think it's a little bit self-explanatory, but you go into some really disturbing and interesting detail about what these funds that were set up for Jeffrey Epstein's victims and how much opportunity there was for Virgin Islands officials to profit from their protection that they gave him. What is it that you've been finding? 

Lee Fang: Yeah, so the Jeffrey Epstein saga is still not solved. There are still many unanswered questions. In February, the Trump administration promised to release unredacted files. The FBI, when they raided Jeffrey Epstein’s homes in 2018, collected CD-ROMs, other recordings, binders, all these files that remain unreleased to this day. They're sitting in a warehouse, the FBI warehouse in Winchester, Virginia and still, nothing has really been released. 

The documents that were supposedly released by the Trump administration were all previously released disclosures. There's nothing new there. My story takes a look at the other side of this, where the national media has really not paid attention. Many of the most important disclosures about Jeffrey Epstein's political network, how he's paid off politicians, particularly politicians in the U.S. Virgin Islands, but also some politicians in the territorial U.S., were released very suddenly and briefly during a lawsuit in 2023 between J.P. Morgan and the Virgin Islands. 

This sudden disclosure was kind of accidental because the U.S. Virgin Islands was hoping to win some settlement money from these crimes, a form of accountability after his death. They really did not expect it, but J.P. Morgan hit back hard, and it countersued and alleged that the Islands' officials were far more complicit in Jeffrey Epstein's criminal operations. From those disclosures, we got hundreds of emails, depositions, and other documents showing how Jeffrey Epstein kind of methodically paid off local politicians, customs agents, various governors and law enforcement agents to receive exemptions from the sex offender list in the Virgin Islands to travel back and forth. As he was bringing young girls, aged between 12 and 15, to his island, customs agents saw that and looked the other way, they refused to check on their safety. There's really just a litany of red flags he was raising, and yet he was paying off politicians to allow him to run his criminal enterprise. 

This piece kind of looks at how the governor, Albert Bryan, closed that window of disclosure. He quickly settled the lawsuit, he fired the attorney general, leading the JP Morgan lawsuit, he later replaced the attorney with one of Epstein's own lawyers, who serves to this day in the U.S. Virgin Islands. He promised that this legal settlement money would be used to prevent another Epstein criminal enterprise by using it to counter human trafficking, sex abuse, and that type of thing. Instead, it's being used as a piggy bank. Legislators there don't know exactly how the money's being spent but for what we do know, it is going to backdate government wages, it's going to vendor payments, it's going to a series of earmarks refurbishing various buildings in the Virgin Islands. There's very little transparency on how this money is being used and it's an ultimate irony or perhaps an injustice that the governor, who now controls these funds, is almost a quarter billion dollars of money, was part and parcel to the Epstein enterprise. He was receiving regular donations and gifts from Epstein. He was the one responsible for giving Epstein special tax breaks and then later pushing for his exemption from the sex offender list. 

So, while we have this kind of national conversation about the Epstein saga, and it's mostly focused on these documents in Virginia that are held by the FBI, which deserve to be disclosed, there are still so many unanswered questions and a lack of accountability in the Virgin Islands. 

G. Greenwald: It's interesting, for the last four years during the Biden administration, the Epstein files, as they've been called, were a major topic on right-wing media, especially independent right-wing media. Two people in particular, who are very influential and popular in that realm, went around constantly talking about whether Jeffrey Epstein killed himself, the doubts about why we should think that, as well as just bashing the FBI every day for concealing the Epstein files. 

Those two people were Dan Bongino and Kash Patel, who are now the Assistant Director and the Director of the FBI. And they, I'm sure you saw them on Fox News earlier this week, and one of the questions they got was about the Epstein documents. The interviewer said, “Did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself? And they both said, “Yes, Jeffrey Epstein absolutely killed himself. We saw the documents.” They were very uncomfortable, but they're saying we saw the documents that prove he killed himself. 

Well, all of you, including Donald Trump, ran on the platform of making the Epstein files public. Why haven't we seen these documents that convinced them of that? But more so, I think the biggest, most interesting question in the Epstein case is, and always has been, “Was Jeffrey Epstein working with or for foreign intelligence agencies?” And it's a binary question. Maybe there's more complexity to it. 

But why is it, do you think, that after four, almost five months, in office, not just the Trump administration, but the very people who kind of built their reputation, in part, on banging the table about the Epstein files, about crushing and bashing Christopher Wray and the FBI for not releasing them, are now in charge of the FBI, and these documents are still not released; not a single one, that wasn't previously public has been released. 

Lee Fang: Well, I was in your program last year to discuss our lengthy investigation about why every […] that influence operation in the U.S., that attempts to change our laws, change who gets elected to Congress, affect American policy – there is an effort to enforce the Foreign Agent Registration Act, so that they disclose their lobbying activities, except for Israel. There is very ample evidence that the Israeli government – and its evidence from Israel, from Israeli news outlets and from Israeli investigations – shows that show Israeli government is pouring millions and millions of dollars over the last 10 years into influence operations in the U.S. and there's been a conscious effort to avoid far registration. 

The Epstein saga kind of raises many two-tier justice questions: one is just generally broadly about the wealthy in society because they were working with Epstein, facilitating his crimes, potentially engaging in sex crimes with him. They are kind of protected from scrutiny. If this were any ordinary American, any lower-class American, they could expect severe penalties and a severe form of justice, but because these are the rich and powerful, they do not receive the same level of scrutiny. Then, for your question around the Israel issue, there is… 

G. Greenwald: To be clear, I didn't say Israel. I just wondered whether he was working for any foreign intelligence agency. 

Lee Fang: Well, many would say that there might be an Israel issue. Interestingly enough, within the J.P. Morgan litigation, the kind of discovery process in some of the exhibits that were filed in the Virgin Islands case, many of the emails between former Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein and some of his associates were disclosed in that litigation in 2023. It was really just an incredible window into Epstein's network. Many other emails of VIP individuals who received help from Jeffrey Epstein, who gave him donations or asked him to “manage their money,” even though it wasn't clear what he was doing with the money, or were traveling to his island, or to his New York home, these were details that were ferreted out from the J.P. Morgan case. Perhaps, again, that's why they moved so quickly to settle it, to close that case. But yes, I think just generally, whether it's Israel or another country… 

G. Greenwald: Maybe it's like Sweden, or Nigeria, but we should know. 

Lee Fang: We don't know, it could be Finland. It's really any of those Nordic countries, but the fact that we don't have these answers and they're sitting on servers, not just with the FBI, right? 

In just this countersuit from J.P. Morgan, they were able to get a huge amount of discovery from Epstein's servers, from his estate, from his associates. He had a close network, Richard Kahn, [Darren] Indyke, […], these three or four individuals who helped arrange many of his financial affairs and helped with the facilitation of his operations in this one little litigation, we were able to see kind of peer into his world. If the government wanted to, if this was a priority for either the Biden administration or the Trump administration, they could make it happen because these emails we know exist. 

G. Greenwald: And I think it's worth noting, and this to me is one of the most persuasive pieces of evidence, that when Jeffrey Epstein was convicted in 2010 in South Florida when he was trafficking minors into his home in West Palm Beach to have sex with them and eventually got caught, the U.S. Attorney in Miami, Alex Acosta, who eventually ended up in the Justice Department, is the one who presided over this extremely shockingly generous plea bargain he got where, I mean, his charges were sex trafficking minors. Everybody who does that goes to prison for a long, long time. And he basically got something like 12 months, six months in prison, a suspended sentence and like community service or whatever. And then he was done and he went back right to… 

Lee Fang: Yeah, he got to spend most of it at home, right? He didn't even spend much of the time. 

G. Greenwald: Right, he started at home. Exactly. Alex Acosta, years later, when asked, “Why would you give a sex trafficker of minors such an incredibly light sentence?” He said, “I was told that he was Intelligence and to leave him alone.” 

So, there's every reason to believe that he had some connection to foreign intelligence. There were a lot of people with whom he was a close associate, including Jelaine Maxwell, whose father, Robert Maxwell, was most definitely a Mossad member; Les Wexner, who is the multi-billionaire who made Jeffrey Epstein rich, who has all kinds of ties to Israel. A lot of people try to say, “Oh, it was probably Qatar.” They always try to say like, “Oh, the country that's really influencing our politics and buying our politics is Qatar.” That was something Bari Weiss just published. I have a feeling that if Jeffrey Epstein were working for Qatari intelligence, that was something we would know and have known very quickly. 

The fact that you have two very hawkish people on the Epstein question, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, who have been running around for years demanding full disclosure, outraged that it's not coming, and now they're suddenly the ones running the FBI and yet there's still not a single document, not one, release that hadn't already been seen – they did that ridiculous, humiliating debate where they called those right-wing influencers like Libs of TikTok and others to the White House and they gave them binders that said, “Epstein files set - phase one” and they were all waving around that binder and it turned out every single document in that binder had been already publicly disclosed long ago – it does really start to make you wonder, doesn’t it? 

Lee Fang: Yeah, this reporting, these details have not been easy. Some of this is a source from just the Virgin Islands for my story, a source from the Virgin Islands’ legislature. I talked to lawmakers there, I looked at litigation files, some which had never been published, even though there were litigation files from 2023, but also, the Virgin Islands operate in kind of a weird space, to U.S. territory, but they do not have an online system for just routine campaign finance disclosures. I had to pay a University of Virgin Islands journalism student to go in person and request documents and then pay an exorbitant fee, just to make photocopies and then have those sent to me.

Reporting this out over the last few months on a story that really should have been public way earlier was not easy to do, but it's clear that for Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, they don't have to do all these kinds of extra steps that I engaged in. This is not a question of ability, this is the question of will. Do they have the political will? Do they have the kind of wherewithal to weather the criticism, the kind of pressure from elite groups, potentially foreign intelligence agencies, by disclosing this information that could be very harmful to the political and kind of intelligence elite? 

G. Greenwald: And the fact that you do that reporting that is often expensive is another good reason for people to join your Substack, aside from the quality of the reporting that they get if they do. 

All right, let me ask you this last question. You're somebody who began journalism, associated primarily with the left. You worked at left-wing think tanks, not necessarily hardcore leftist think tanks, but you wrote for The Nation. You worked for the Center for American Progress, and you had a pretty left-wing outlook on things. You began to kind of have a breach with the around issues like crime and race, things that you were previously talking about, but crime was a really big one that, the left was constantly opposed to, almost reflexively, to any efforts to take crime seriously, to have the police emboldened or empowered to arrest criminals. You were particularly incensed by things like “defund the police,” that movement that arose in the wake of the George Floyd killing. And that has been something that you've taken seriously for a very long and in part because of your personal experience growing up in a mixed-race, working-class environment where there were a lot of working-class residents constantly victimized by violent crime. 

Now you live in California and San Francisco, where there's a lot of crime, obviously, including from immigrants who enter the country illegally. So as somebody who has taken those issues seriously, like the need to really crack down more on crime and violent criminals, as well as, you know, the flow of immigrants across the border, how do you look at thus far the Trump administration's efforts to crack down on people who have entered the country, especially those who have engaged in some sort of violence? 

Lee Fang: I see kind of like a lot of the same examples you've highlighted on the show as draconian as probably unconstitutional, illegal, immoral. If you look at what the Trump administration has done in terms of sending Venezuelans to CECOT, the maximum-security prison in El Salvador, I think it's morally horrendous. The Washington Post recently reported that many of the individuals that were sent there were people who were cleared for asylum status, who had protested Maduro, and then fled here after doing so.

Which senator was the one who encouraged people to rise up against the Maduro government in Venezuela and said that if you came to this country, we would provide new asylum protections and TPS protections to protect you? That was Marco Rubio. He led that.

So, just the absurdity, the kind of partisan cruelty for him to turn around and take those same individuals and send them to this prison without any due process is disgusting. Broadly speaking, I look at the kind of confirmation hearings this week for the USCIS role that the immigration wing of the Department of Homeland Security, that kind of manages a lot of the visa programs, and they're saying a lot of things that I think make sense, talking about the role of foreign workers, of these kind of temporary visa programs that were initially created 20 years ago, 30 years ago, like the one H1-B program and then the OPT program to encourage just the most skilled, scarce workers that we don't have in this country. These programs have ballooned into a kind of internal job replacement program where corporations are bringing millions of workers in who will work for lower wages for tech-related software and IT jobs. 

The Trump administration, which initially, back in January, rejected attempts to reform programs, is now kind of changing its tune and is considering a reform of these programs. This is something that Bernie Sanders and many of the more traditional class-focused left have talked about for a very long time. I don't see any problem with that. The other kind of enforcement areas of just like how do you get folks who are in this country illegally out of this country and then how do you prioritize to make sure that you're doing it in a way that's just and fair, it's a mixed record, right? 

At the end of the day, the Trump administration, on a month-to-month basis, has deported less than the Biden administration, compared to last year. There are some different variables here. There are fewer border crossings this year than last. You can also compare this year between this year and the last few years of the Obama administration, which had way more deportations. Again, there's a different variable there. There's more police ICE collaboration back in the Obama years than this year. There's simply not as much collaboration between police agencies and ICE in 2025, so it's perhaps not possible. So, it's hard to compare. If you look at some of the extreme measures they've taken against speech, ongoing after legal students who are here to study and who have protested Israel, and focusing on them to deport them. That's clearly absurd. The CECOT prison is absurd. I think for the rest of their kind of agenda, it's a mix. There's some good and bad. And I think just in terms of a policy, a lot of it just hasn't come into effect yet. The deportation numbers are actually quite low. 

G. Greenwald: Yeah, they've relied on these kinds of very theatrical and flamboyant expressions of police state strength. “We're going to throw them into prisons in El Salvador, we're going to send them to Libya, we're going to put them in South Sudan,” things like that. But the reality is that there have been no mass deportations as promised by the Trump campaign. They've spent huge amounts of time and energy and money instead of going after them almost right away, as you said, people in this country who are completely law-abiding, who are here with green cards or student visas, for the crime of protesting Israel or criticizing Israel. And so in lieu of getting what they were told for 10 years from Donald Trump they would get, which is mass deportations, they're instead getting this massive crackdown on speech under the guise of immigration policy aimed at protecting this foreign country, Israel, from criticism and people have really not noticed, given all these kinds of sideshows over the Alien Enemies Act and shipping them to El Salvador and the fact that the integration deportation numbers are actually quite low. 

All right, Lee, thank you so much. It was great to see you, as always. I'm sure we'll have you back on our show soon. I hope you have a good evening 

Lee Fang: Thanks, Glenn. Have a good weekend. 

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All right, Friday night is for our interaction with our Locals members, but also in front of our entire Rumble audience. The reason we do that, as I've said before, is I think interaction with your audience is of the most importance. I have always hated the model of journalism that's monolog inform, where some journalists just step on a mountain top and bequeath to people the truth. I think it's very important to hear critiques and questions and interact. And we do that throughout the week on Locals. So, let's get into them. We have a lot of good ones tonight. I want to try to get to as many as possible. 

The first one is from @ChristianaK, who says:

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I talked a little bit with Lee about this and he said something I completely agree with, which is, I never thought I would be defending Harvard in my life. Especially over the last, say, 10 years, Harvard really has become a place which is almost ground zero for censoring speech. It's often ideologically homogenous. It's become just this kind of closed circle, a very specific, idiosyncratic, academic-ish left-wing culture war homogeneity. There's a lot wrong with academia in general. 

All that said, I find academia to be extremely important. I think it's a vital part of society. If you go back to the Enlightenment, which I regard as the founding principles of Western civilization, at least in the modern era, in terms of our political values and the like, academics talk frequently about the need to have at least one place in society where everything is up for grabs in terms of what you can debate, what you could challenge. There are no taboos, there are no pieties. I think having an institution in society like that, where everything is studied, everything is questioned and everything is poked at, is vital. It helped me learn a lot. 

It really stimulated my interest intellectually that there were all sorts of things out there that had been about questioning these long-term pieties and you were free to express the things that you wanted to express. I think it is quite disappointing, quite harmful, quite tragic that in so many ways our universities have become these ideologically homogenized outposts of political activism at the expense of what should be this academic freedom.

 Nonetheless, it really is true that one of the things that has been most responsible for America's success, economically, technologically, politically, socially and militarily, has been research that takes place at our highest institutions. Everywhere in the world, people look at Harvard and talk about Harvard with great admiration and awe. Here in Brazil, if somebody went to study at Harvard, even for a year, and they come back and they say, “Oh, I studied at Harvard,” it imparts them with immense credibility, and that's how it's looked at around the world. I mean, Harvard is one of the symbols of American greatness. It's been a leading college for 450 years, same as Yale, Brown and Princeton, but Harvard, especially globally, is at the top. 

So, I think, if you're going to have a government that suddenly decides that it's going to wage a major war to try to destroy what have always been America's leading academic institutions, it’s kind of out of the blue, just start attacking it in every conceivable way, I think everybody should be very guarded about why that's happening. 

In general, leading academic institutions and the government have had extremely close partnerships. The reason the federal government gives money to places like Harvard and Yale, and all sorts of other schools, is not because the government is being benevolent. It's not because the government wants it to have a nice gender studies program. Sometimes it's to fortify financial aid so that not only rich people from rich families can go to the top schools, but mostly it's for paying for research projects that the United States government once undertook. It was federal-funded research programs at our universities that led to the invention of the internet in the United States and American dominance over the internet for all those years. It came right out of the federal funding of academic institutions, cures and medical treatments, scientific advances and technological advances that often were things the government wanted done for military use. 

When you have well-funded research programs, that's how you attract the greatest minds from all around the world and that only fortifies the institution. Without these research facilities, it basically just becomes like a liberal arts school for 18-year-olds and 19-year-olds, as opposed to institutions where the highest-level research and innovations take place. On top of that, it's the question of why these institutions are being attacked. 

In the case of Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Brown, Princeton and all the others that the Trump administration has targeted, there has been one argument that I think is a valid one, which is that there has been discrimination in the admissions process for a long time. It was considered affirmative action, where you would purposely go out of your way to divide all the applicants into groups of race, to ensure that there was a representative percentage from each group. Part of that was to correct historical injustices, other parts of it were to have a more diverse campus. I think there was a time when you could make that argument that was necessary and over time we've gotten to the point where we've decided that that's no longer necessary that it's actually a form of racism in its own way and courts have stepped in and begun to rule against those sorts of practices and they had to scale back greatly on them. 

So, I understand that objection, but the much bigger reason, as we know, is that these schools allowed protests against Israel to take place. For many years – you can go back to 2010, 2012, 2014 – all of these groups that are funded by Israel or Israeli loyal billionaires were obsessed with American college campuses because they knew that that's where the primary activism against Israel was based on this boycott, divestment and sanctions model that helped bring down the apartheid regime in South Africa. Israel and its loyalists were petrified that that would work in American campuses. They knew a lot of the anti-Israel sentiment was being talked about and allowed on American campuses and they set out this whole anti-woke thing if you go and look at it, all these people who were obsessed with Israel, who led this anti-woke movement on college campuses, were doing it, in part, because they hated American colleges because it allowed too much Israel criticism. The Trump administration is saying that you have allowed too much antisemitism, meaning Israel criticism on your campus; they're actually forcing institutions to put their Middle East Studies program under receivership so the government can control what is taught in Middle East Studies programs. 

Who thought that the role of the U.S. government was to control the curricula of how adult academics who teach adult students can do their curriculum, can pick their course materials? But that's what the Trump administration is doing. And it's all because of Israel, to some extent, it's because they perceive it's kind of a left-wing institution, they want to attack it. But they've already denied funding these schools. 

Here from AP News on April 15: “Trump administration freezes $2.2 billion in grants to Harvard over campus activism (AP News. April 15, 2025.)

We know what that “campus activism” means: the Israel protests that you allowed. Harvard said, “Look, you've gone too far. We made a lot of concessions, but we're about to become a branch of the Trump administration if we go too far, we're going to sue instead.” And they sued, that's when the government went ballistic. 

Today, Homeland Security announced that they were canceling the student visas of all Harvard students, revoking them immediately, and would refuse to give student visas for any international students that want to go to Harvard in the future. So only 25% of Harvard has international students. It's a way that the United States spreads pro-American sentiment. People want to come to the United States, they want to study in the United States, they get integrated into American culture. It has great benefits for the U.S. As I said, people look at Harvard as this place that everyone around the world wants to go to, or Yale, or Princeton, or Columbia, Stanford, whatever. 

The idea that Harvard, of all places – its current president is Jewish, most of its past presidents, close to a majority, if not an overall majority over the last 30 years, have been Jewish. Larry Summers is one of the people who ran Harvard for the longest. Their biggest donors are overwhelmingly Jewish. Jews do very, very well at Harvard. The idea that it's some kind of cesspool of antisemitism is laughable. 

But as we know, any criticism of Israel is now deemed antisemitic and that's what's driving the Trump administration. So, now, you take these huge numbers of foreign students who have spent years pursuing PhD programs, a lot of them are going to graduate and stay in the United States and become extremely productive members American society, and even if they don't, even if go back to their countries, they're obviously going to have a connection to the United States, and now you take all these people who have put years and years into their studies, and out of nowhere, they're instantly told “Your visa is revoked and you can try to get into another school, we'll extend your visa then, but if you don't, Harvard doesn't have any more student visas. We're revoking them all, and we're banning Harvard from accepting any foreign students in the future”. 

This is basically on the verge of destroying Harvard, notwithstanding their $50 billion endowment. As Lee said, this $50 billion endowment almost makes them like a hedge fund. So, I don't have sympathy for Harvard, but it is true that denying them all federal money, destroying and forcing them to dismantle all research programs, and then disallowing any international students will absolutely cripple this institution that has for 500 years been the pinnacle of American greatness, a symbol of it, and a crucial tool in soft power. 

It's just yet another way that this government got into power and decided that one of its goals, if not its number one goal, was to punish anybody who was criticizing Israel. I think it's incredibly dangerous. What we've done is we basically turned the United States into a country where a requirement to enter, to study, or to work is that you love Israel and worship Israel, or that you at least agree that you were framed from ever criticizing it. We're just sacrificing so much of our national interest for this foreign country. 

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Question #2. It’s from @Kurt_Malone, who asked the following:

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This has been a controversy taking place among various journalists. I've certainly talked a lot before about how many of the people who have very lucratively branded themselves as free speech champions over the last several years, but who are really just Israel loyalists, who are doing this to attack college campuses and now have turned around.

Now you’re looking at this massive First Amendment attack in the name of stopping Israel criticism and they either barely care, barely mention it, occasionally mutter some mild opposition to say they have done it, they did or oftentimes, even support it.

Bari Weiss, yesterday, in response to the murder of the two Israeli embassy staffers, basically said anyone who's been attacking Israel or denouncing it in harsh ways, or its supporters, has blood on their hands. So, there are a lot of people who have built a large audience, mostly conservatives, right-wing people, or MAGA people, by championing free speech because over the past 10 years, conservative speech has been one of the main targets of censorship. And so, these people who are independent media outlets, who rely on subscription money from their viewers, it's a big problem in independent media. I've talked about it before. It's a problem in corporate media as well, that a lot of people don't want to say things that will ever alienate or offend their audience because they know if they do, there's a good chance that they'll lose subscribers, which is how they make their money. 

I've talked about it before, as an independent journalist, I also have that dynamic. After October 7, we lost a lot of subscribers who were pro-Israel and didn't want to hear my critiques of Israel and who still don't. We still lose subscribers over that. But over time, if you actually build yourself and your audience with a look to the long term as somebody who has integrity and you build an audience of people who know that you can't come and expect that you're going to always hear what you want to hear but you're always going to, at least, hear the honest perspective and an argument behind it, then you build an idea of people who respect your integrity and aren't here for validation,  which I would suggest is a much more valuable audience to have. 

So there have been some disputes. One of the people who has been most criticized for this is a friend of mine. So, I'm reluctant to speak specifically about him. You can go see these arguments. I will say, one of the reasons why I think it's so important to me that I have a great distance from the kind of social scene in Washington and New York and politics and media is because it is corrupting, it is difficult. If you end up immersed in a social circle and you end being friends with all these politicians who you're supposed to be adversarial to, or other journalists whom you're supposed to criticize because there is a sort of ethical, I think, valid principle, that if somebody is really your friend, I don't mean acquaintance, I don't mean somebody who you say hi to occasionally, but somebody who's really a friend is doing something you disagree with, to turn around and denounce them publicly. It's a real conflict in principles between, on the one hand, you want to hold people accountable and critique them when they deserve it, but on the other hand, like turning around and just publicly denouncing a friend is hard. 

So for the most part, that's why I avoid that social circle. I see it all the time. You see Jake Tapper in this book with all these journalists going around and talking about how they've known these Biden White House officials forever. And so, when they said there's nothing wrong with Biden, they didn't think they were being lied to; they believed them. They didn't want to criticize these people. That's what being friends can do to journalists or to, and I think it's a major reason why Washington is so corrupt, media and politics. They all live in the same neighborhoods and they all socialize with each other. They're all intermarried, the media and the political class. And so, they're anything but adversarial to each other, but I will say there's this idea that some of the people are saying, “Look, I don't want to comment on Israel and Palestine because I don't know enough about it, it's too complicated, it is just not an issue I want to talk about.” And then there's a resulting critique. No, the reason you don't want to talk about it is because you don’t want to defend Israel or the censorship being implemented in the United States in its name. After all, you would be obviously betraying everything you ever said you believed in. But you also don't want to denounce it because you have a lot of people who support Donald Trump or Israel in your audience and you're afraid of alienating them and losing money from saying what it is that you believe. 

So, let me just say, quickly, a few things about this because it is a growing controversy. One is that I actually am somebody who has always tried to, who strongly believes in the idea that there's nobody who can be an expert in everything. There's no person who has expert-level or specialized knowledge in every debate. 

It's always been so important to me never to report on, comment on, or analyze topics that I don't actually understand better than just the ordinary person who's not paying much attention. I've always only covered a handful of issues at one time that I believe I have some kind of specialized knowledge or expertise in, or some unique perspective that's informed, so that I can basically place a claim on the audience's time if I want to write about something or talk about something. I do agree that if there's something you don't understand well, if there is something that you haven't covered, it's best just not to talk about it. 

That said, once there's an issue that becomes so significant, maybe tariffs is an example, which is something that Trump's tariff policy was something I ordinarily would not talk about since I'm the last person who can give you a good microeconomic assessment of tariffs and the like. But I can talk about other aspects related to it. I can have people on my show that I've talked to, that I asked about, because some issues are just too big to ignore. And the war in Israel, especially if you're an American citizen whose government is paying for that war and arming that war, given that world organizations have called this a genocide, people have said this is the worst war in their lifetime that they've ever seen, even an Israeli former Prime Minister came out and said today that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza, two million people being starved to death. Our government is paying for it, at the same time, there are major implications in the United States, on Americans and our basic constitutional rights. It's just not an issue that I think you can just say, “Yeah, I don't understand that. I think I'm going to avoid that.” I'm not saying you have to cover it every day, I'm saying you have super didactic opinions about it, but I think it's kind of an abdication of your responsibility if you have influence on a platform to just refuse to talk about the most significant issues that the entire world is discussing, especially when they directly affect the causes that you have claimed you're most invested in. 

Again, I think there are a lot of people in the sort of what had been called the international dark web, as they self-glorifyingly named themselves, who pretended to be free speech advocates, who have now abandoned that because the real loyalty was to Israel. And then some people just haven't really spoken much about it because audience capture is very real in independent media. It's not like you're either super noble and you don't care about it, or you're just integrity-free, greedy money, sucking pig. There are a lot of nuances, and there's a big spectrum between those two things. But I do think it's very important if you're going to have any credibility that you do everything possible to ensure that you never have a fear of your own audience and that you have this view that it's better to lose some audience and subscribers short-term or maybe even long-term that you won't replace, especially if you're somebody who's built a big platform and making a very good living doing this, than it is to just have the goal to build the biggest audience possible by avoiding ever telling them anything that might make them at all upset.

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 Question #3 is from @teardrinker who says:

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So, just for those of you who didn't see it, there's this big controversy in Brazil, actually a major epidemic in Brazil. Brazil, under this very unpopular president, in 2017, legalized gambling basically overnight. As a result, all these apps popped up to allow people to put their money into these accounts and then start betting on sporting events or all sorts of things online, playing casino games. Huge numbers of people, millions of people, Brazil's a country with a huge economic inequality, have become addicted to gambling, to these apps on their phones. The minute they get government assistance that is supposed to feed their family, or their paycheck, they transfer the whole thing into their gambling account. They've been told that it's a way to get rich, to escape poverty. And you have people massively in debt, losing everything, destroying their families over this gambling addiction. 

A major reason why is that you have these Instagram influencers who have tens of millions of followers who show people their super glamorous, luxurious lifestyle. These betting companies are paying these influencers to tell their young audience, their poor audience, “Oh, you should go bet. Use this betting app. You can make so much money.” And they show videos of the influencers betting and making money that are often fake. And not only do these influencers get millions of dollars to lead their poor and young audience into betting but they get percentages of whatever losses their audience has, which is profit for the betting app. And we showed you a part of an investigation that the Brazilian Senate is doing on this. 

And so, here's this question:

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Okay, it's so interesting because I have always taken a very libertarian approach to all of these issues. My general philosophy is that if you are an adult, you have the absolute right to consent to whatever behavior you want to engage in, as long as it's not directly harming somebody else. And by that, I mean like punching somebody or attacking somebody violently. I don't mean like blowing your money on some stupid, ill-advised shopping spree and then harming your family because now they can't pay their bills. I mean, direct harm. 

I believe that about pretty much everything. What drugs people take, what alcohol they consume, whether they gamble, whether what kind of sex they engage in with other adults consensually, my view of that has always been very strongly this libertarian view that adults should be able to make whatever choices they want that involve consent, and it's nobody's business to stop them. You can have public campaigns about the dangers of alcoholism or drug addiction. I'm all for that, so you give people information, but I don't believe in intervening, and I think they are responsible for the choices that they make. 

I have begun to rethink and retreat from that absolute libertarian view of people's choices a bit. I'll explain why. We're really entering a dystopian society, and we've had this for a long time, a dystopian world, where there are parts of the world that are extremely affluent and that most of the world is incomprehensibly poor. And you have things now, like for example, we talked about this before, we'll probably do some reporting on it because I want to learn more about it, but you have these affluent Europeans, I'm sure Americans as well, who need a kidney transplant and there's nobody who's compatible, who will give them a kidney. So they're traveling to countries in West Africa that people are barely at a subsistence level. And they're paying them $20,000, $30,000 and $40,000 to donate a kidney. I mean, is that something that we really should say is nobody's business? You have two adults in a transaction, one selling their organ to the other so that they can feed their children. Or is there something like incredibly exploitative about that to the point where it's very hard to say that that's actually consensual? 

I've been thinking the same thing about surrogacy arrangements. You have very wealthy couples. Most of them, by the way, are not gay couples; most of them are straight couples, contrary to belief, overwhelmingly straight couples, although the number of gay couples doing it as well has increased. And they want a baby. They can't produce a baby for whatever reason. Gay couples can't procreate. A lot of straight couples can’t either. Sometimes they don't want to, the woman doesn't want to carry a baby. 

So, they find a woman who needs $30,000, $50,000, whatever, $100,000 to carry their baby with an agreement that the minute that baby is born, the biological mother just hands over the baby, has no rights to it. Probably, if you asked me 10, 15 years ago, I would have said, “Yeah, that's their own choice. Who is the state, or anyone, to intervene in that transaction?” 

I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of women who do that are not very, very harmed psychologically. And again, as people get richer and the rich-poor gap increases, these kinds of transactions are going to become more and more complex. What about couples in the West who can't procreate and want to adopt but don't want to go through the adoption process? And so, they go to Africa, or they go to Asia, to extremely poor countries, and they pay some family. They say, “Hey, I see you have a healthy three-month-old infant, or a six-month infant, or a two-year-old, we want one of those. If we pay you $100,000, can we take your kid?” I mean, that's the same thing, right? That's very consensual, it's transactional, but is anyone going to say they have no qualms about that? 

I think sometimes Americans have problems understanding what poverty around the world is if you haven't lived in a country where it exists. What's considered poor in the United States, I mean, now it's become a little more severe, but what is considered poverty in the United States is nothing like what is considered poverty in most places in the world. There may be people who don't have access to clean water, don't have access to healthcare, don't have access to anything. And the internet is everywhere, and people are influenced. That's why they're called influencers. 

That's the same with gambling. So, I'm not saying that people who end up gambling and losing everything and destroying their lives and the lives of their family have no responsibility. Of course, they have some. Nobody forced them to do it. I've stopped thinking that all these things have this kind of pure, beautiful, consensual character to them because I have trouble seeing that as purely consensual. And again, I'm not saying it should be banned. I'm not even saying necessarily that I think it's the role of the state to stop it, but it doesn't make it so that it's perfectly fine either. Yeah, this is something I've been reconsidering. I think there's a lot of pressure for exploitation. 

As for this word “gaslighting,” I just, in general, hate new words that pop up and become part of the ethos. And especially gaslight was used mostly by a kind of MeToo movement. It was part of that MeToo lexicon where I think the excesses of Me Too have been well-documented. I oppose them from the beginning. I hate mob justice. I hate the idea that accusations should be treated as true with no evidence. I don't trust any human being, man, woman, anybody, with that level of power to say, “Oh, your accusations, they have to be inherently believed.” And that's where gaslighting came, a very, kind of vague accusation that people began making against their husbands or their boyfriends to claim that their relationship was, quote-unquote, “toxic.” I understand what it means. 

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Next question, @kkotwas asked:

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 It's funny, I was going to ask Lee a very similar question. I think that there has been a drastic, visible, palpable, documentable, severe turn in public opinion both in the United States and globally toward Israel. Israelis are talking about how they're becoming a “pariah state.” The level of dehumanization and cruelty and suffering and killing that Israel has perpetrated on the Palestinians for 17 months, as we've all watched it live every day and that they're saying they're going to continue to perpetrate basically until these people are in concentration camps, driven out of their land – and imagine the level of violence that's going to cause. They are announcing that they are entering Gaza. They're going to take to it all, they're going to bomb whatever's left, they're going to force Palestinians to leave, the ones who don't are going to be in concentration camps, a little walled-off, fenced-off areas that they get to stay in, surrounded by the IDF. These are concentration camps. 

It has turned the world against Israel in ways never previously seen since the creation of Israel in 1948. And they know that, polling data shows it. You see countries that have been among the most vocal Israeli supporters and allies for a variety of political reasons, like Canada, the U.K. and France, jointly issuing a statement, vehemently condemning Israel, not merely a mouth condemnation. Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant have been officially indicted by the International Criminal Court as war criminals. They have to avoid certain countries. IDF soldiers are afraid to go to various countries. There are projects to make sure they get arrested or chased out of the country, which happened in Brazil. We actually interviewed the head of one of the groups that tracks IDF soldiers who participated in crimes in Gaza, because all these countries are signatories to various conventions that forced them to arrest people on their soil who have committed war crimes. One almost got arrested in Brazil, he got snuck out at the last second. 

And then Israeli tourists as well are being met with all sorts of hostility and I think that's why there have been these desperate attempts to censor Israel criticism, to criminalize it, to attack these universities over it, to arrest and deport people for criticizing or protesting Israel; these are acts of desperation. 

And yeah, I don't think that the murder of two Israeli staffers, as terrible as it obviously is, and the scope of what's happening in Gaza that's been happening for the last 18 months, that will continue to happen unless it's stopped for the next year or so, or however long, I think it's going to be a speed bump. 

Israel supporters are hoping they can turn it into something much greater, but I don't think it's going to succeed, given how Israelis are still not just destroying all of Gaza and the people in Gaza, but saying some of the most Nazi-like horrific things, including Israeli officials that think we should separate the women and the children and then take all men 13 years over and exterminate them. They're all them saying Gazan babies are enemies, there are no innocent Gazan babies, they grew up to be terrorists. Really sick, sick stuff. They don't think the world is good. I want to say tolerate, but I don't think there's any stopping Israel in the sense that they're an apocalyptic cult, and it would take some political will on the part of the West and the United States, almost like a humanitarian intervention, to really stop it. 

But I think Israel is going to pay a huge price for a long, long time; they have all kinds of internal dissent. Netanyahu is consolidating all sorts of undemocratic power. They were in a civil war before October 7 over the Supreme Court, whether orthodox Israelis have to serve in the military, and they have a lot of internal tension. People are fleeing the country. So no, I do not think these two murders of last night are going to radically change the trajectory of how Israel is perceived. 

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All right, the @farside asks:

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I've been saying this from the beginning. Every time there’s a Supreme Court ruling against the invocation of the AEA, where they're required to give the new process. Now, a Trump-appointed judge and an appellate court have said Trump's not even allowed to invoke the AEA: it's only for wartime. And then you have a bunch of Trump supporters saying, “But what do you mean? We voted for mass deportation. Are we supposed to give trials to 20 million people?” 

I've always turned to emphasize, I think it's now finally being understood, not just for me, but others, that the problem is that you have a deportation system instead of laws. It's very easy. You just deport. You show they're not in the country illegally, you send them back to their home country. The problem is that Trump didn't want to use that. He wanted to invoke the Alien Enemies Act. Something that has only been invoked three times before, during wartime, the War of 1812, World War I and World War II, because it gives Trump immense power, far more power than he has otherwise. 

So, automatically, the president's powers increase in times of war, the deference that courts give a president when there's a wartime emergency automatically increases. So, by declaring war, Trump's already consolidated more power. And then, the Alien Enemies Act gives him almost unfettered power to do anything to people he declares to be an alien enemy. He can just put them in camps. 

Remember, he sent them to Guantanamo and that's the policy that FDR invoked to put Japanese Americans in camps. You don't have to send them back to their home country. That way, you can just send them to El Salvador, a country they've never been to and have nothing to do with, and put them into prison. And you can send them to Libya. You can send them to South Sudan, which the Trump administration is now talking about doing and in the process of doing. The Trump Administration came in wanting to ensure, and I think understandably in a way, because Trump’s first term was basically characterized by constant subversion of the president's authority. Trump was boxed in all the time, he was sabotaged, and they were determined to not allow that to happen by this big bureaucracy, by the deep state, by the administrative state. And so, they came in determined to have a plan to allow Trump to do whatever he wanted with no constraints. The Alien Enemies Act was part of that.

The problem is that it is a very severe law, only intended for wartime. And even then, as the Supreme Court said, 9-0, when it said they're all entitled to habeas hearings before being removed under the AEA, even people suspected of being Nazi sympathizers, Nazi operatives inside the United States were given a hearing before they were detained or deported. All these legal controversies around deportation are not about deportation itself; they're about the AEA, which Trump invoked, because of the extraordinary powers that it gives him. 

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All right, I think this is the last question. It's from @65wakai:

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Yeah, that's a very complex question to answer in a short period. It all depends on how long people have been there. I mean, there's obviously an indigenous population in the United States that American settlers and colonialists went to war with, massacred, and now they have rights recognized by the United States, including their own sovereignty inside reservations. There are indigenous people in Brazil who came way before Portuguese colonization. Primarily in the Amazon, there are tribes that are still undisturbed, unconnected to the world. It's a little hard to say that they don't have rights to Brazil, where they've been for who knows how long. Same with Africa. 

If you're talking about Israel and Palestine, I think the problem there is that it's not really a claim that, “Oh, my people have a right to this land.” It's really that “God gave my people this land,” it's not, “Oh, we've been here for a long time, therefore, we should have it,” it's that “God said this is ours.” 

I do not think that theological claims about what God wants and who God wants to be in certain places are a valid claim for that land. We have a geopolitical system of solving diplomatic conflicts, which the world recognizes, and the Israelis are lucky, because for a long time, it didn't look like this. Would Israel, with certain borders, the 1967 borders, with the West Bank and Gaza belonging to the Palestinians and most Israelis who now want to steal the West Bank in Gaza and act against all international law and take it for only Jews, are doing so because they believe that God has bestowed them that. And I think that's a much different question. It's one of the things that bothers me about Zionism as an ideology: it inherently depends upon a Jewish supremacy that, at least within Israel, Jews will always be supreme and I don't think that it's an ideology that leads to anything good.

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Israeli Embassy Staffers Killed in DC: Reactions and Implications; DHS Terminates Student Visas for Harvard
System Update #459

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

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There's a lot to talk about because a cold-blooded murder happened last night on the streets of Washington, D.C., as a gunman apparently targeted people associated with an event held at the Capital Jewish Museum, where the American Jewish Committee was hosting a reception for young diplomats. The two victims, a couple in their mid-20s, soon to be engaged, were both staffers at the Israeli embassy in Washington. The shooter left behind a manifesto stating he was doing it, killing people, to protest Israel's ongoing destruction of Gaza, and he yelled pro-Palestinian slogans, including “Free Palestine,” once he was arrested. 

It goes without saying, or at least it should, that randomly targeting people you don't know for murder is morally unjust in all cases, regardless of the justness of the cause in whose name you're doing it. But the reaction to this violence predictably lurched very quickly. We'll look at all the ramifications and the attempts to use these killings for various agendas. 

Then, the Department of Homeland Security announced today that it was immediately revoking all international student visas for Harvard, forcing all students to try to find another school or face deportation from the United States. All of this comes as the Irish rap band Kneecaps has been formally charged with terrorism crimes by the U.K. government – terrorism crimes – for featuring a sign at one of their shows in support of Gaza and against Israel, as well as using images of Hezbollah in their show. As global public opinion grows against Israel, threatening to make it, in the words of an Israeli official, a "pariah state", the censorship campaign and the efforts to suppress Israel's criticisms become more severe and more desperate every day. 

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What happened last night in Washington, D.C., by all appearances, and we should definitely wait for more investigations and for facts to unfold because often things aren't what they appear to be in the first day or week, but by all appearance it seems as though somebody very committed to the cause of protesting the Israeli destruction of Gaza, the Israeli ethnic cleansing in Gaza, and the Israeli genocide in Gaza decided that, even though the world is starting to realize what's going on, even though the U.S. government itself understands that the population is turning against it, that there's simply nothing that will be done to stop the slaughter of Palestinians by Israel – based on some very twisted moral reasoning, that he thought it was justified and helpful – to randomly gun down too young Americans with ties to Israel although he presumably didn't even know they had ties to Israel at the time that he did it. 

It was a couple that was going to be engaged when they went to Israel next week, She was Jewish, grew up in a Jewish family, had very strong ties to Isreal, had often gone there but when she would go there, she would work on with the groups that try to bridge gaps between Israelis and Palestinians to kind of create dialog between the two, to try to encourage peaceful coexistence. 

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