Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Culture • Writing
Michael Tracey Reports from the RNC in Milwaukee (Ep. 300)
Interview
July 22, 2024
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Hey, everybody, Michael Tracey here. Glenn is not here – as you may have noticed – instead, it's me, Michael Tracey, because we are at the Republican National Convention. I've never had more fun in my life. I guess I haven't had a very fun life.  

It's the final night. Trump is going to be speaking tonight, we're told. I have no reason to doubt that. But you can never quite predict the future, so we'll have to see, I suppose. 

Glenn is going to be doing a live streaming, allegedly, after the Trump speech. In the meantime, enjoy many of the interviews that we've conducted over the course of the Republican National Convention here in Milwaukee, to repeat myself, lots of hot shots, politicos meandering around thinking they own the place, maybe in a way, they do. We have Marco Rubio. We have, chairman McCaul, one of the big chairmen in the House, asked all these people about, you know, lots of stuff involving topics that are familiar to viewers of the show: Israel, Ukraine, aspects of foreign policy, how would Trump in a second term run foreign policy and the like? So, it's a pretty wide array of different figures. We hope you enjoy it, and, again, allegedly, Glenn will be back sometime later tonight. 


Congressman Marco Rubio (R- FL)

 

M. Tracey: Senator, in your view, has the strategic ambiguity policy vis-a-vis Taiwan outlived its purpose. And what do you anticipate or hope for a second Trump administration to revise that policy for a more explicit commitment to defend Taiwan? 

 

Marco Rubio: That's a complex public policy question that probably doesn't lend itself to the hallway of a convention. Suffice it to say that it is on our national interest to discourage China from carrying out an invasion of Taiwan that would be really destabilizing and not to mention dangerous. 

 

M. Tracey: And one more question. What was your reaction to the Julian Assange plea deal that the Biden DOJ brokered a few weeks ago? Do you view that as a threat to national security? Are you okay with the outcome threat? 

 

Marco Rubio: Not a threat, but unfortunately, you know, we are rewarding terrible behavior. But, I mean, I wasn't a fan of it, but [...]


Congressman Michael McCaul (R-TX)

 

M. Tracey: Hey, Congressman. Michael Tracy with Rumble. So just a couple of minutes of your time. We're with Congressman Michael McCaul, of Texas, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Correct? 

 

Michael McCaul: That's right. 

 

M. Tracey: I didn't even have to Wikipedia that. So, what are the running themes over the course of this Convention, since the dawn of the Trump era has been America First. How is that defined? You were a staunch supporter of the National Security Supplemental that passed in April. Is being a stalwart supporter of, Ukraine, of Israel, of the Indo-Pacific, consistent with America First as you see it? Because, you know, sometimes there's debate about that among even some of the Republican, members. So how do you square that circle? Does it need squaring?  

 

Michael McCaul: Well, I think it is our adversary, foreign adversaries Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. If we allow them to – and they're getting very aggressive under this administration, which is projecting weakness. And that's why you're seeing wars. We wouldn't have seen this with President Trump. But, the fact is, if we allow them to take over territories, that puts America last. And my dad, World-War-II generation, D-Day veteran, you know, they won for the free world against, you know, dictatorship, tyranny, for better, you know, world, America for the next generation that's mine. So that's kind of the worldview that I have. I get the point that people care about back home. And that's 100% right. And I think J.D. Vance is right about that. But at the same time, that doesn't mean we have to be number two overseas. And I think we need to, like Reagan did, project strength and power, overseas, with our allies against our adversaries. 

 

M. Tracey: Do you think in a second Trump administration, there ought to be a revision to the strategic ambiguity concept vis-a-vis Taiwan? Should there be a more direct, overt, policy statement on the part of the United States to come to Taiwan's, defense, in the event that there's some incursion by China? Has (our) strategic ambiguity outlived its purpose?  

 

Michael McCaul: I think that's something we need to be taking a look at to provide deterrence against China. I just came back from Taiwan. I was with the newly elected president. The Chinese encircled the island with battleships and aircraft carriers and a blockade, which would be a prelude to an invasion, what it would look like. So that's something we are taking a look at. You know, the status quo doesn't sound right, but it does keep Taiwan and China from going to war. One of the red lines that China has is if they violate the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act, which calls for that status quo agreement. So, we have to be careful with that, but I think we need to give them, you know, a sign-off on all foreign military sales, $20 billion that Taiwan – we didn't give it to them, they bought it from us – and only half of those have gone into Taiwan. I think we need more of those to go in to provide that deterrence. So, we're going to be talking about a war. 

 

M. Tracey: There are some people in the Republican coalition who at least purport to be skeptics now, maybe, newcomer skeptics of the concept of the military-industrial complex, the derisive way of putting it, but, you know, you're involved in that process by overseeing military sales. Does peace through strength, does it not require pouring endless expenditures in? Some might call them boondoggles for the defense contractors. How do you sort of manage that skepticism that might be burgeoning somewhat within the Republican ranks toward the military contractors right now? 

 

Michael McCaul: You know, I understand that sentiment, but if you don't have a strong military, you know, we spend more percentage of GDP in the 1980s under Reagan than we spend today. I was with the Indo Pacom commander, you know, the admiral talking about the threats in the Pacific, and he doesn't have the resources. A lot of these foreign military sales to our allies and countries we want to be our allies, we can't fulfill those contracts for five years because our defense industrial base has been broken to some extent. This involves manufacturing here at home, 80% of the supplemental on Ukraine goes to manufacturing in the United States, which I think J.D. Vance would agree with and certainly Tom Cotton, I agree with that's a good [...] 

 

M. Tracey: J.D. Vance voted against the Supplemental. 

 

Michael McCaul: I know, I know. But, you know, manufacturing here […] 

 

M. Tracey: So did Marco Rubio, which was a little bit odd, but neither here nor there […] 

 

Michael McCaul: And I think he came back around. You know, Cotton certainly agrees with that premise. And I think that provides deterrence. You know, if you don't, he can have rhetoric but if you don't have the means to back it up, then what good is that? I'll tell you, under Trump, the rhetoric was helpful. I mean, he's told me personally the things when he talked to Putin, Putin knew if he invaded Ukraine, it would come at a high price. Same thing with Chairman XI. He knew with Trump, if he invaded Taiwan, there would be a high price to pay for it. And this President Biden, there's absolutely zero deterrence. 

 

M. Tracey: What is the current U.S. policy vis-a-vis what areas in territorial Russia, Ukraine is permitted to use U.S. weaponry to strike? We were told initially it was just in the Kharkiv area. Then Jake Sullivan seemed to expand the parameters. It's just not well-defined. So, as best as you can tell, what is the current policy, what is the range that Ukraine is permitted to strike using U.S. operational coordination? And how would those constraints that have been imposed by the Biden administration be lifted under the Trump administration? Would they become more stringent under the Trump administration? What's your forecast for that?  

 

Michael McCaul: President Trump's that kind of guy, he would let him take the gloves off, give him everything they need to win. You know, Jake Sullivan has been restricting the Ukrainians from day one with weapons systems. I had to write into the Supplemental, and even now he's restricting their use. The cross border, where all the bases are, where these glide bombs or bombers are coming across. He saw the one that killed the children at the hospital in Kyiv. That's no way to manage a war. And that's one reason the American people are not supportive, if they see it mismanaged like that. My view has always been like, general Jack Keane is like, you either get into win all into one, or get the hell out of there. And Jake Sullivan has completely […] 

 

M. Tracey: The National Security Advisor, if viewers aren't aware. 

 

Michael McCaul: Correct. And I think he's hurting the Ukrainians. I've met with the Zelenskyy’s team and they tell us these restrictions are not allowing us to… I think the goal here is to push the Russians out as far as they can have a cease-fire and a negotiated settlement. My hope is that President Trump will allow that to happen and then call for a cease-fire. And he's a master of the deal. 

 

M. Tracey: Yeah. I don't know if you saw the Policy Paper. Final question. That was, Fred Flights and Keith Kellogg, affiliated with the America First Policy Institute, submitted a policy framework to Trump. And he received the report as far as, you know, certain accounts of it went and I read that Policy Paper, it actually is the diametric opposite of what the conventional media narrative would be around Trump's posture vis-a-vis Ukraine and Russia. Right? It calls for continuing to arm Ukraine. Yeah. It calls for, declaring that Ukraine will never accede to any territorial concessions to Russia. It seems like rather maximalist and not all that different from the Biden administration's, at least their claimed policy. So, are these, supposed differences may be exaggerated at times in terms of how a Republican and a Democratic administration would handle Ukraine? 

 

Michael McCaul: Yeah. When you look at the people around President Trump, certainly one of them, you know, Mike Pompeo is very hawkish. He's very much behind – because if Ukraine loses, the United States loses to Putin. 

 

M. Tracey: On Pompeo, really quickly, my impression is that Pompeo was one of the very few senior administration officials who Trump never had a falling out with, who remained on good terms with him all throughout that first administration. Is that accurate? […] 

 

Michael McCaul: He spent a lot of time with the president and Keith Kellogg, a good friend of mine, he sees it, like I do, like, give them everything they need to win. And, you know, we can't allow them because China can only get Taiwan. And now, you know, the Middle East is on fire. But if you look at the people around him, general Jack Keane, same, same thinking. Robert O'Brien, former national security advisor to President Trump, we all see this same worldview and the same way. And I think that's what's going to matter at the end of the day.  

 

M. Tracey: Finally, what was your reaction to the plea deal that enabled Julian Assange to exit incarceration, he had been there for five years, I think, under Belmarsh, in the UK, actually indicted under the Trump administration. And some deal was brokered to enable him to go back to Australia, did you have a positive reaction to that or a negative reaction to that?  

 

Michael McCaul: I have a worse reaction to what's allowing an Iran prisoner or hostage swap for six innocent Americans and six, you know, Iranian spies and then giving Iran $6 billion. That's, that gives me a lot more heartburn, to be honest. 

 

M. Tracey: What about, I mean, on the merits? What about the Assange development? 

 

Michael McCaul: I haven't followed it very closely, I’ll be honest with you. I know the Wikileaks is a big deal. But, you know, I think a court of laws and verdict should be followed, so. 

 

M. Tracey: All right. Congressman McCaul, thank you very much. 


Nigel Farage (MP from Clacton, UK)

 

M. Tracey: We're with Nigel Farage, newly elected MP from Clacton. So, congratulations on that. 

 

Nigel Farage: Thank you very much. Yeah, it's been a busy day. I was in Parliament this morning for the King's Speech. So, I saw the king this morning with his crown. And here I am this evening in Milwaukee. So, it's been a good day. 

 

M. Tracey: Have you supplanted the conservatives officially yet? I know that was one of your election goals.  

 

Nigel Farage: Yes, it was, and we better start. You know, this is the first important step. I literally had a month at this. We've made a big impact. I know we are going to reconfigure the center-right of British politics in just the same way Donald Trump has done it here in America. 

 

M. Tracey: So, I'm a bit of a connoisseur of British politics myself. One question that came to mind as I was following the most recent campaign was you became a sensation on TikTok. In the United States, there's a controversy about TikTok allegedly being a tool of Chinese espionage. Do you see that as there is any validity to that allegation? How does that kind of dictated or not your use of that particular platform? 

 

Nigel Farage: I'll be honest with you: I was deeply conflicted over it, deeply, deeply conflicted over it and have been for a couple of years. I came to the conclusion that this is what Gen Z does. This is what they do. TikTok is what they do. And whilst I've got concerns about the ownership, and certainly the American authorities of course are looking very hard […] 

 

M. Tracey: Joe Biden signed a bill that, in theory, will prohibit or prescribe TikTok within a matter of months if they don't change ownership […] 

 

Nigel Farage: In theory. Whether it happens, I mean, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Look, I'm reaching out to young voters, young people. I've done it partly with passion, partly with humor. You know what? Everybody's jealous of me, so, it works. And, you know, there are things in the world we can't change.  

 

M. Tracey: Yeah. Finally, last question. Many Republican members of Congress who have spoken today believe Trump was spared, the worst of that would-be assassin's bullet, thanks to divine intervention. Did that thought ever cross your mind? 

 

Nigel Farage: I was nearly killed in a plane crash 15 years ago. I shouldn't have survived. I believe in guardian angels. Trump last Saturday had a guardian angel. No question.  

 

M. Tracey: All right, Nigel Farage, thank you very much. 


Congresswoman Lauren Boebert (R-CO)

 

M. Tracey: So, we're with Congresswoman Lauren Boebert, of Colorado. How are you?

 

Lauren Boebert: Hi there. I'm doing fantastic. It is great to be here in Milwaukee at the RNC convention. President Trump, the leader of our party, has been here, has been strong and encouraging. I can't even begin to describe the enthusiasm, the excitement and the passion from the people here at this convention. 

 

M. Tracey: So, Congresswoman, you are one of only 21 members of the House who voted against both the Ukraine Supplemental Funding bill in April and the Israel Supplemental Funding bill. Have you received pushback for the Israel vote in particular? Obviously the pro-Israel is a strong lobby in Washington. Sometimes they do intervene in primary races. What have been the political ramifications, if any, you just won the primary yourself in Colorado. What's the aftermath of that been like? 

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LOCALS MAILBAG: Send in your questions for Glenn!

Any questions that you’ve posted either here today or in our feed across the week are considered!

September 10, 2025

RE: Charlie Kirk ... I appreciated Glenn's comments tonight. It reminded me of the Clint Eastwood quote from Unforgiven: "Its a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away everything he's got and everything he's ever gonna have."
That thing "he's gonna have" might be a change of mind about something you disagreed with him about. I just thought it was important that Glenn emphasized the point that we are all much more than our opinion about any one particular issue and even our opinion on that issue will often change over time.

September 10, 2025

Enjoyed your show on Charlie Kirk, whose death has affected me more than I had anticipated. Probably because he was younger than my own son, and he has two young children (and I was already sad about the Ukrainian lady being stabbed). Anyway, here's an interesting post from a teacher on Substack about Kirk:
https://substack.com/profile/8962438-internalmedicinedoc/note/c-154594339

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System Update #508

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

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Minnesota Shooting Exploited to Impose AI Mass Surveillance; Taylor Lorenz on Dark Money Group Paying Dem Influencers, and the Online Safety Act
System Update #507

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System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

 

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There've been a lot of revelations over the last 25 years, since the 9/11 attack, of all sorts of secretive programs that were implemented in the dark that many people I think correctly view as un-American in the sense that they run a foul and constitute a direct assault on the rights, protections and guarantees that we all think define what it means to be an American. And a lot of that happened. In fact, much of it, one could say most of it, happened because of the fears and emotions that were generated quite predictably by the 9/11 attack in 2001 and also the anthrax attack, which followed along just about a month later, six weeks later. We've done an entire show on it because of its importance in escalating the fear level in the United States in the wake of 9/11, even though it's extremely mysterious – the whole thing, how it happened, how it was resolved. But the point is that the fear levels increased, the anger increased, the sadness over the victims increased and into that breach, into that highly emotional state, stepped both the government and their partners in the media, which essentially included all major media outlets at the time, to tell people they essentially have to give up their rights if they want to be safe from future terrorist attacks. 

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Glenn Takes Your Questions on the Minneapolis School Shooting, MTG & Thomas Massie VS AIPAC, and More
System Update #506

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

 

We are going to devote the show tonight to more questions that have come from our Locals members over the week. It continues to be some really interesting ones, raising all sorts of topics. 

We do have a question that we want to begin with that deals with what I think is the at least most discussed and talked about story of the day, if not the most important one, which is the school shooting that took place in a Catholic church in Minneapolis earlier today when a former student who attended that school went to the church, opened fire and shot 19 people, two of whom, young students between eight and ten, were killed. The other 17 were wounded, and amazingly, it’s expected that all of them are to survive. The carnage could have been much worse; the tragedy is manifest, however, and there is a lot of, as always, political commentary surrounding the mass shooting attempts to identify the ideology of the shooter in a way that is designed to promote a lot of people's political agenda. So, let's get to the first question.

 It is from @ZellFive, who's a member of our Locals community. He offers this question, but also a viewpoint that I think really ought to be considered by a lot more people. They write:

 

So, I'm really glad that this is one of the questions that we got today because this is a point I've been arguing for so long. So, let me just try to give you as many facts as I possibly can, facts that seem to be confirmed by law rather than just circulating on the internet. 

So, the suspected killer is somebody named Robin Westman, who is 23 years old. After they shot 19 people inside this church, killing two young children, they then committed suicide with a weapon. The person's birth name is Robert Westman, and around 16 or 17 years old, he decided that he identified as a woman, went to court, changed the legal name from Robert to Robin, and began identifying as a trans woman, so that obviously is going to provoke a lot of commentary, and there's been a lot of commentary provoked around that. We will definitely get to that. 

 

The suspected killer also left a very lengthy manifesto, a written manifesto which they filmed and uploaded on a video to YouTube, along with showing a huge arsenal of guns, including rifles and pistols and some automatic weapons. I believe various automatic rifles as well. I don't think they used any of those weapons at school. I believe they just used a rifle and a pistol, if I'm not mistaken. But we'll see about that. 

It was essentially a manifesto both in written terms, but then they also wrote various slogans on each of these weapons and various parts of the weapons. And we're going to go over a lot of what they put there because there's an obvious and instantaneous attempt, as there always is, to instantly exploit any of these shootings before the corpses are even removed from the ground. And I mean that literally. The effort already begins to inject partisan agenda, partisan ideology, ideological agendas to immediately try to depict the shooter as being representative of whatever faction the person offering this theory most hates or to claim that they're motivated by or an adherent of whatever ideology the person offering the theory most hates. And it happens in every single case. 

Oftentimes, there's an immediate attempt to squeeze some unrelated or perhaps even related agenda in and out of it instantly. Liberals almost always insist that whenever there's a mass shooting, it proves the need for a greater gun control without bothering to demonstrate whether the gun control they favor would have actually stopped the person from acquiring these weapons in the first place, whether they were legally acquired, whether they could have been legally acquired, even with gun control measures, it doesn't matter, instantaneously exploiting the emotions surrounding a shooting like this to try to increase support for gun control. Whereas people on the right often do the opposite. 

On the right, they typically will argue that more guns would have enabled somebody to neutralize the shooter more rapidly, that perhaps churches and schools need greater security. We need more police. So, there's that kind of an almost automatic and reflexive exploitation again, almost before anything is known, but there is an even more pernicious attempt to instantly declare that everyone knows the motives of the shooter, that they know the political outlook and perspective of the shooter. They know their partisan ideology and their ideological beliefs in an attempt to demonize whatever group a person hates most. 

This is unbelievably ignorant, deceitful and ill-advised for so many reasons. The first of which is that every single political action, every single ideological movement, produces evil mass shooters. For every far-leftist mass shooter that you want to show or white supremacist mass shooters that you want to show, you can show people who have murdered in defense of all kinds of causes. And so even if you can pinpoint the ideology of the shooter on the same day the shooting happened, I mean, you can develop a clear, reliable, concise and specific understanding of the shooter that you never even heard of until four hours ago, but you're so insightful, your investigative skills are so profound, that you're able to discern exactly what the motive of this person was in doing something so intrinsically insane and evil as shooting up a church filled with young school children. 

The idea that anyone can do that is preposterous on its face. I mean, the police always say, because they're actual investigators, actual law enforcement officers who want to collect evidence that stands up for public scrutiny and also in court, “We don't know yet what the motive is; we're collecting clues.” But almost nobody on Twitter or social media or in the commentariat is willing to say that. Everybody insists immediately, no, the killer was motivated by the other party, the opposite party of the one I'm a member of, or this ideology that's not mine, or in this religion that is the one I like the most to demonize. It's just so transparent and so blatant what is being done here. And yet it's so prevalent. 

I mean, you could go on to social media and principally the social media platform where the most journalists and political pundits, influencers and the like congregate, which is X, and I could show you probably 40 different theories offered definitively with an authoritative voice. Not like, hey, this might be possibly the case, but saying clearly, we know that the killer was motivated by this particular ideology, this particular set of beliefs. And I'm not talking about random X users, I'm talking about people with significant platforms, people who are well-known. 

I could probably show you 40 different theories like that, where every person is purporting to know definitively exactly what the motive of the shooter was and by huge coincidence they all have latched on to whatever ideology or faction or motive most serves their own political worldview to demonize the people with whom they most disagree, or whatever ideology or group of people they most hate. That's always what is done. And I guess in some cases, if a shooter leaves a particularly clear and coherent manifesto, and we have had those sometimes, we have had Anders Breivik in Norway, who made it very clear that his motive was hatred for Muslim immigrants who shot up a summer camp in Norway. We had the Christchurch, New Zealand killer who attacked two mosques and mass murdered dozens of Muslims at a mosque and made clear he was doing so because it was viewed that Islam is a danger. We had the mass shooter in a Buffalo supermarket, who made manifest their white supremacist views. We've had mass shooters who are motivated by hatred of Christianity, as happened in the Nashville shooter attack on a Christian school there, I mean, I could go on and on. 

As I said, every single political faction produces mass shooters, mass killers, evil, crazy people who use violence indiscriminately against innocents in advance of their beliefs. But most of the time, and you might even be able to say all of the times – I mean, maybe I don't like the phrase all of the times because you can conceive of exceptions, but close to all the time, most of the time, people who go and just randomly shoot at innocent people whom they don't know are above all else driven by mental illness and spiritual decay, not by political ideology or adherence to a political cause. That often is the pretext for what they're doing; that may be how they convince themselves that what they are doing is justified. But far more often than not, the principle overriding factor is the fact that the person is just mentally ill or spiritually broken, by which I mean just a completely nihilistic person who has given up on life and wants to just inflict suffering on other people because of the suffering that they feel or their suffering from delusions. 

And this isn't something I invented today. This is something I've long been saying. And I just want to make one more point, which is, even though there are sometimes manifestos that are extremely clear and say, “I am murdering people in a supermarket that is African-American because I hate Black people and I don't think they belong in the United States,” or “I believe that white people are the sole proper citizens of the United States and I want to murder and kill inspired by those other mass murderers” that I mentioned, even then, it may not be the case that the person's representation of what they're is the actual motive because it could be driven by a whole variety of other factors, including mental illness, or all kinds of other issues to be able to conclude in six hours, even with a crystal-clear manifesto that the person did it for reasons that you're ready to definitively assert are the reasons is so irresponsible. It's just so intellectually bankrupt. 

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