Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Culture • Writing
SYSTEM UPDATE FLASHBACK: The West Embraces Online Censorship
Video Transcript
October 25, 2024
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Note: This is a System Update Flashback revisiting some of the many instances of Western governments or political figures attempting to suppress speech and control the internet.


More Censorship Pressure 

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on Oct.10, 2023

 

We have been reporting for almost two years now on the fact that the top priority of Western centers of power is to implement a rigorous fiscal and legally endorsed regime of censorship that primarily controls the principal means that we use to communicate with one another, to disseminate information and ideas and to receive our news, which is the Internet, and particularly the small handful of large platforms that have commandeered the power over the flow of information. And there have been all kinds of reporting, of course, on all the different ways that Western governments are attempting to influence and coerce censorship to demand that views that they regard as threatening to be banned. Every new crisis, including the election of Trump, Brexit, Russiagate, the 2020 election, January 6, COVID, the war in Ukraine and, now, the war in Israel, is seized upon – every single one of them seized upon – as justification for more and more censorship. That is how this censorship regime has been fortified. 

One of the things that has happened without much media attention – we cover it every time it happens when we can – is that governments around the world, around the democratic world, are now adopting laws that empower them explicitly to wield the centers of power. It had been the case that they were doing it informally. The Twitter files, of course, were about how the CIA, the FBI and Homeland Security would pick up the phone and call Facebook and Google and Twitter and say, hey, what about this tweet? Why are you on this one? We want this one banned. There's a disinformation tweet about COVID, here's one about Ukraine: We want these gone. And a federal court recently ruled that the Biden administration's fixation on doing this violates the First Amendment. One of the gravest attacks on free speech, said the court ruling, in decades, if not in the history of the judiciary. 

But governments are really not content any longer to use that kind of informal threat or that kind of shaming or the leverage they have over these companies because they regulate them, because they dole out benefits and said they're now adopting legal frameworks that lay out the powers that they have and provide for punishments, serious punishments if major social media platforms do not comply with their censorship demands, it is now a crime or illegal not to censor in the way that Western governments want. I can't overstate how repressive that is. We talk all the time about how China would impose all sorts of restrictions on the flow of political speech in China. That's exactly what Western governments are doing, and they're doing it by law. We covered the enactment and the approval of the Online Safety Act in the UK. Look at how Orwellian that is: The Online Safety Act, is trying to make the Internet safer for you by keeping away from you unsafe or dangerous ideas. 

We have been reporting on the law that is pending in Brazil, which would be one of the most repressive of all but, at the last minute, its enactment was prevented because Google and Facebook went to the mat to argue against it. The point that the Brazilian Supreme Court banned them from doing that further, ordered the executive of those companies to appear at the Federal Police for interrogation over the activism in which they were engaged to stop the law. 

One of the most repressive laws – and we've talked about the law in Canada as well recently – is the C-11 law which isn't quite as extreme as the UK law. And the most extreme of all is actually the one that has now been adopted by the EU, which is the Digital Services Act, an incredibly benign-sounding law that in fact is incredibly repressive. And they have been building up, they have been laying the foundation for months – we've been reporting on every step of the way – to essentially create a perception that the failure on the part of social media companies to censor in accordance with their demands is dangerous, it's causing the flow of disinformation and hate speech, it's fortifying Russian propaganda. 

As I said, the war in Israel and Gaza is not even three days old and already the EU official who oversees this new censorship, who advocated for it, who's been a longtime censorship advocate, is a French official who works right under the German president of the EU. He has been working overtime to create the perception publicly that Twitter, Google and Facebook's value to censor is a serious public threat that the EU now has to do something about. And one of the tactics that censors always use when it comes time to censor is they always deliberately choose in the first instance someone who is so widely disliked that most of the public won't mind when those people are silenced. They think, Oh, well, I don't really care if this person with this extreme view has been silenced. That person is dangerous. The problem is that the reason they choose someone deeply unpopular is because they know the public will acquiesce and now the precedent has been set. And then once they start using it on less disliked people or people who have a greater proximity to, say, the mainstream, by then it's too late. You've given them that power. Remember the very first people who were depersonalized by big tactics got together and chose to eliminate them from Big Tech platforms all at once. It was in 2018, during the Trump years, of course, and it was Milo Yiannopoulos and Alex Jones, two of the people most widely hated, certainly, by mainstream venues. And everybody said, “Well, I don't really care that Alex Jones can't be heard or Yiannopoulos can't be heard. They spread hatred, they spread lies.” Obviously, it was very predictable, and one of the very few people who stood up and objected at the time was Peter Thiel, who sat on the board of Facebook, and said this was an extremely dangerous precedent within a very short period. They were using it against more and more and more people including people who weren't as disliked as those two. But by the end, the power had been given to them because people didn't object. That's always what they do. 

And so, one of the things the EU is doing, even though they're after Facebook and Google equally, they're focused primarily on Twitter, what is now X, because of how hated Elon Musk has become in neoliberal culture, given his commitment to free speech and his refusal to censor on command and they know that going after Facebook or Google this way will be more difficult, in part because they're just much bigger and more powerful companies. Twitter is a small fraction of the size of Facebook and Google, but also because Elon Musk has become such a hated figure. This is the person who did more than anybody to bring electric cars to the market at a time when liberals are saying that there's no greater priority than reducing our dependence on fossil fuels. You would think he would be a hero, and yet he's hated. Because he bought X by waving the free speech banner and promising to defy censorship orders. He's been far from perfect in that. We've covered and criticized him when he has violated his own principles, but he has allowed a lot of people who were previously censored to be heard and they're enraged by it. They are media elites and political elites and they know that if they focus on Elon Musk with the use of this new area, there will be enough people happy about it simply because they hate Musk and believe that he's allowing too much free speech, that very few people will object and they'll have this power to go and use it against Facebook and Google and everyone else that they want to use it for. 

They know that emotions are extremely high about the war in Israel in the West; it is essentially a unified consensus in the mainstream that it is the duty of the West to support Israel. The monuments in Germany, France, the UK and the U.S. have all been lit in solidarity with Israel and support for Israel. The EU, the UK and the U.S. have all pledged across political parties to do everything possible to support Israel. They know that this is the issue that provokes the most emotions right now. And so, today they wrote a letter to Twitter, X, threatening Elon Musk that “you are going to pay a huge price if you don't censor more.” And they cited an allegation that he's allowing disinformation right now, specifically about Israel, knowing that that would be designed to get people on their post-censorship side. 

Here is the news article from Reuters but what we really want to go through and show you is the letter sent by this leading EU official, which we will because I don't think you will believe just how heavy-handed, authoritarian and dictatorial it is and its tone and its sentiment. 

You see the headline:

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The EU's industry chief told Elon Musk that disinformation was spreading on his X messaging platform since the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas' surprise attack on Israel, urging him to take countermeasures in line with new EU online content rules.

 

Thierry Breton said on Tuesday he had indications that X, formerly known as Twitter, was being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the European Union. (Reuters. October 10, 2023)

 

Let me just stop here and say that obviously nobody likes disinformation in principle. The problem is who has the power to determine what's true and what's false. And I honestly can't fathom the level of drooling authoritarianism necessary to trust or want to empower government officials like Brenton, the French EU official, with the power to determine what is true and what is false to the point where they have the power to ban anything they decide is disinformation. But that is what this line is. It says it right there. It says urging him to take countermeasures. In line with new EU online content rules, which means that the people who decide what is disinformation and what can and can't be heard are people like Thierry Breton and EU officials. The article goes on. 

 

Breton did not give details on the disinformation he cited. X did not immediately respond to a Reuters request for comment.

 

The online content rules known as the Digital Services Act (DSA) require X and other large online platforms to remove illegal content and to take measures to tackle the risks to public security and civic discourse. (Reuters. October 10, 2023)

 

So, this is the key part. This law purports to require all social media platforms to remove what they regard as illegal content, which includes hate speech and disinformation, and to take measures to tackle the risk to public security and civic discourse, all as determined by the agenda of these EU officials. This is a pure censorship regime. There's no other way to describe it. No drama is needed, no hyperbole. This is a legally enacted EU-wide censorship regime that now entails massive punishments for any large social media platform that refuses to censor in accordance with the dictates, opinion, and agenda of EU officials.

If anyone thinks I'm overstating the case or being melodramatic about it, let us look at the letter sent today by this EU official to Elon Musk. Because, as I said, it's not just the content, the tone that makes it so manifest. What's really going on here? 

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It's on official EU European Commission stationery. It's from Thierry Breton, a member of the EU Commission. He, of course, is in Brussels. These are Eurocrats, the kind of Brussels-based bureaucrats that the people of the United Kingdom decided they did not want to be ruled by when they enacted Brexit because this is the sort of people they are.

 

Following the terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas against Israel, […]

 

So, do you see already what they're doing? They're exploiting these emotions. They're saying, given the outrageous, dangerous terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas against Israel, knowing that most people are horrified by what they saw – as we covered last night – “We have indications”…

 

[…] We have indications that your platform is being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the EU.

 

Let me remind you that the Digital Services Act sets very precise obligations regarding content moderation. […]

 

And as we all know, content moderation is just a liberal euphemism for censorship. But he's saying that there are now very precise obligations regarding content moderation under this new law and now he is about to lay out what those requirements are.

 

First, you need to be very transparent and clear on what content is permitted under your terms and consistently and diligently enforce your own policies. […]

 

Why does the government have the power to require social media platforms to censor in a certain way? He goes on. 

 

This is particularly relevant when it comes to violent and terrorist content that appears to circulate on your platform. Your latest changes in public interest policies that occurred overnight left many European users uncertain.

 

Second, when you receive notices of illegal content in the EU, you must be timely, diligent and objective in taking action and removing the relevant content when warranted. We have. from qualified sources, reports about potentially illegal content circulating on your service despite flags from relevant authorities.

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Third, you need to have in place proportionate and effective mitigation measures to tackle the risks to public security and civic discourse stemming from disinformation. Public media and civil society organizations widely report instances of fake and manipulated images and facts circulating on your platform in the EU, such as repurposed old images of unrelated armed conflicts or military footage that actually originated from video games. This appears to be manifestly false or misleading information.

 

I therefore invite you to urgently ensure that your systems are effective, and report on the crisis measures taken to my team. […]

 

You see how dictatorial these people are, how despotic and authoritarian they are, you are to censor in accordance with our demand, and then you are to report to me on these censorship steps you have taken. 

 

Given the urgency, I also expect you to be in contact with the relevant law enforcement authorities and Europol, and ensure that you respond promptly to their requests. […]

 

So, we have this whole controversy in the United States because the CIA, Homeland Security and the FBI were pressuring Twitter, Facebook and Google to remove information. A court found that it is unconstitutional, but they're in the EU. They're saying we have law enforcement authorities that are going to be contacting you, demanding that you take down certain content. When they do, you had better ensure that you are in contact with the relevant law enforcement authorities and Europol and ensure that you respond promptly to their requests. That is not just a suggestion. That is the requirement of the law now. Social media companies have to obey the censorship orders of European law enforcement agencies, EU agencies, Security State agencies, the DOJ, the FBI equivalent, and the CIA equivalent of Homeland Security. 

In case you thought the orders were done:

 

Moreover, on a number of other issues of DSA compliance that deserve immediate attention, my team will follow up shortly with a specific request.

 

I urge you to ensure a prompt, accurate and complete response to this request within the next 24 hours. We will include your answer in our assessment file on your compliance with the DSA. I remind you that following the opening of a potential investigation and a finding of non-compliance, penalties can be imposed. 

 

Yours sincerely, Terry Brighton.
          (EU Letter to Elon Musk. October 10, 2023)

 

Are you comfortable with that? I cannot fathom how anyone could be. I genuinely can't. It’s one of those issues where somebody who tries very hard to see things from other people's perspectives – actually I work a lot on that with my kids and the importance of not only looking at the world through your own perspective but trying to understand other people's perspectives if they have a view or a conclusion different than your own, instead of just condemning it or denouncing it or rejecting it, you have to first try to understand where that's coming from, what the basis is. It's just empathy, the ability to understand the perspective of other people. This is an issue in which try though I might, I cannot understand how people would think it's a good idea, how they would want and trust government officials do have this power. Except, of course – and you have to be cynical, I guess, to assume this – it's because they believe that these government officials have a perfectly aligned ideology with their own and that therefore the censorship will only be aimed at their political enemies. I still wouldn't want that if I believed that to be the case. In part because I just think it's wrong, intrinsically, and dangerous, intrinsically, but also because I would never be secure. Then, at some point, those leaders will change and then the views about disinformation and hate speech will morph and start to be directed at my own cause or my own views.


Dems Want Amazon to Censor 

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on Oct. 23, 2023

 

That's what's happening with these kinds of overt censorship efforts emanating from elected officials in Washington over the Internet – the thing that we most use and most depend on for the dissemination of information, they now control it. They are able to demand the removal of content. Even with this appellate court ruling that we extensively covered, the Fifth Circuit ruled that the Biden administration committed, in the words of the court, one of the gravest frontal assaults on free speech in the history of the judiciary, even with that, Democrats continue to, out in the open, not only not hide it, but brag about it, boast of their efforts to demand, to force and pressure tech companies and social media platforms to censor political speech they dislike. This is one of the most extreme examples yet – and I heard today from a very reliable source, I don't know if it's been publicly reported or not, that the Supreme Court has agreed to hear this case on appeal from the Fifth Circuit. 

This whole campaign, this recent effort was initiated, as it so often is, by corporate media. That is one of the most remarkable parts about this whole censorship regime, is that it is led by its primary advocates. Our most vocal advocates are people who are employees of media corporations who call themselves journalists. These are the primary censorship advocates in the United States: journalists are the enemy of free expression and of free speech in the United States, corporate journalists in particular. And what happens is they have this roster of “disinformation experts,” this whole industry of this fake expertise, funded by Pierre Omidyar, Bill Gate, and George Soros. It really is that small handful of billionaires. I'm sorry, that sounds like a conspiracy theory but under every disinformation rock, one finds that along with funding by the U.S. government and British intelligence agencies, are this tiny group that controls this industry and therefore defines what is and is not disinformation. The newspapers, like the Washington Post, justify these disinformation experts' claims as a basis for publishing articles claiming that some site ought to be censored because it produces so much disinformation. Even though the irony, of course, is nobody produces more disinformation than these media outlets themselves, and often the disinformation experts on whom they rely. 

All of this started on October 7, when The Washington Post published an article with this headline: “Amazon's Alexa has been claiming the 2020 election was stolen.” 

 

The popular voice assistant says the 2020 race was stolen, even as parent company Amazon promotes the tool as a reliable election news source — foreshadowing a new information battleground (The Washington Post, October 7, 2023)

 

“Foreshadowing a new information battleground” meaning the Washington Post has opened up a new front in the information war because they are now finding new reasons why free speech platforms that refuse to censor like Substack and Rumble, a new reason why they now need to be controlled and banned because they're responsible for contaminating Alexa, the noble and sacred oracle of truth, with claims about the 2020 election. And so much of this is going to intensify more than you can anticipate, more than I can anticipate, as we head toward the 2024 election, especially if, as looks likely, Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. There are no limits that they will recognize when it comes to doing everything possible to ensure Donald Trump cannot win. They'll censor, they’ll lie, they'll propagandize beyond what they did in the 2020 election when most media ratified the CIA lie that Hunter Biden's laptops and the documents that came from it were inauthentic frauds and “Russian disinformation.” And then Big Tech censored those stories. That was extreme. Wait until you see what they're going to do to the 2024 election. So, here's what The Washington Post – the seed they planted:

 

Amid concerns the rise of artificial intelligence will supercharge the spread of misinformation comes a wild fabrication from a more prosaic source: Amazon’s Alexa, which declared that the 2020 presidential election was stolen.

 

Asked about fraud in the race — in which Joe Biden defeated President Donald Trump with 306 electoral college votes — the popular voice assistant said it was “stolen by a massive amount of election fraud,” citing Rumble, a video-streaming service favored by conservatives. (The Washington Post, October 7, 2023)

 

There's so much packed in there designed to manipulate people's brains, including the fact that Rumble is not a conservative site. It is a site on which a lot of conservatives appear because they have escaped and fled from Big Tech censorship. But there are a lot of liberals and leftists on Rumble. There are a lot of independents, people who can't be characterized one way or the other because they're sometimes endorsing views associated with the left and sometimes with the right. There are a lot of people who are just anti-establishment, and a lot of demographic data suggests that at least one-fifth, and even higher, viewers of Rumble identify as Democrats and another 20%, or 30%, as independents. But that's all, of course, a way of trying to suggest that Rumble is inherently untrustworthy because it's a right-wing say, even though it's not. 

I don't know. Are there really any people who regard Alexa as the place they go to learn about the world? Wikipedia, as we documented in the show we did a couple of weeks ago by talking to the Wikipedia co-founder, is one of the worst sewers of disinformation I've ever seen. Everything is geared toward promoting neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who dissents from it is smeared with lies on that site. That site is a font of disinformation, but because it's intended to serve the agenda the Washington Post likes, you'll never see an article like this about Wikipedia. 

 

The 2020 races were “notorious for many incidents of irregularities and indications pointing to electoral fraud taking place in major metro centers,” according to Alexa, referencing Substack, a subscription newsletter service. Alexa contended that Trump won Pennsylvania, citing “an Alexa Answers contributor.”

 

Multiple investigations into the 2020 election have revealed no evidence of fraud, and Trump faces federal criminal charges connected to his efforts to overturn the election. Yet Alexa disseminates misinformation about the race, even as parent company Amazon promotes the tool as a reliable election news source to more than 70 million estimated users. (The Washington Post, October 7, 2023)

 

So, because there are a couple of Substack articles that claim the 2020 election was the by-product of fraud because Rumble doesn't censor that claim and there are a few videos on Rumble claiming that, somehow the sacred Alexa got defiled because it used Rumble and Substack and therefore The Washington Post is trying to create the foundation to say that these sites are dangerous; Amazon should ban them and should only allow The Washington Post and the New York Times to contribute to its services, but not sites that actually allow a multiplicity of views. 

That was The Washington Post performing its function. 

Here now is the news outlet Must Read Alaska, we fact-checked this article and, as we're going to show you, it's entirely true. It just does a very good job of explaining what happened there.  We didn’t want to steal their narrative, I wanted to give them the credit they deserve. 

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Do you see how it migrates from The Washington Post to the Democratic Party, all working together to try and constantly silence and marginalize whatever sites allow dissent or criticism of their orthodoxies? 

I obviously don't need to go through how many lies The Washington Post disseminated about the Iraq war, the 2016 election, and Russiagate. They got Pulitzers for endorsing the CIA's unhinged conspiracy theory about Trump and Russia. They constantly called into question the authenticity of the Hunter Biden laptop to prevent Joe Biden from being negatively perceived by the American voter, by maligning that evidence based on lies, they obviously spread countless lies about COVID and the war in Ukraine. And yet here's what happens now as a result of that Washington Post article:

 

Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Rep. Joe Morelle of New York are concerned that Alexa cites sources they don’t approve of — like the video site Rumble — and they worry about the spread of misinformation leading up to the 2024 election. (Must Read Alaska, October 21, 2023)

 

They definitely do worry about the spread of misinformation leading up to the 2024 election because they intend to disseminate a lot of it. And they don't want any sites that permit people who are there to document the propaganda and deceit that they're using in anticipation of the election.

 

The demands for answers come after a Washington Post story worried that Alexa sometimes refers to Rumble and Substack as sources when answering questions. (Must Read Alaska, October 21, 2023)

 

Here is the letter that Amy Klobuchar and Joseph Morelle wrote to Jeff Bezos on October 19, citing The Washington Post story and nothing else. Needless to say, the Democratic Party, with Biden in the White House and their control of the Senate, has enormous power over Jeff Bezos and his various companies. They awarded contracts to him and Amazon worth billions and billions of dollars. They can punish Amazon and regulate Amazon. He also is the owner of the Washington Post, the outlet that published the story that they're now using,

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Dear Mr. Bezos:

 

As we approach the 2024 elections, we write to express serious concern about recent reporting that Amazon Alexa – a virtual voice assistant tool relied upon by millions of Americans – is repeating false claims about the outcome of the 2020 elections and to request information about your efforts to combat this troubling content.

 

Again, what's crucial here is these are not just ordinary citizens writing to Amazon with their complaints. These are people writing in their official capacity as members of the U.S. Senate and Congress, knowing all the power and influence they have over Jeff Bezos. That reminds me a lot of when U.K. officials wrote to Rumble saying, “I demand to know what you're doing to de-monetize Russell Brand,” obviously trying to intimidate Rumble and other sites to cut off Russell Brand's livelihood, even though he's still, by the way, not been charged – let's remember that Russell Brand still to this date has never been charged, let alone convicted, of any crimes. They tried to coerce various sites, upon the pain of being banned in the UK, to punish Russell Brand. And that's what they're doing here.

 

According to public reports, when asked about the 2020 presidential election Amazon Alexa cited unvetted sources to make false claims about election fraud. While Alexa relies on a variety of sources to answer questions, when asked about the 2020 presidential election it appears that some answers were provided by contributors instead of verified news sources.

 

What is a verified news source? Who verifies these news sources? Who determines what are legitimate news sources and what aren't? We're going to do a segment at the end about a new report from Brazil that Brazil's domestic intelligence agency had CIA and FBI illegally spied on me as reprisals for my reporting, something that has happened many times in my career from other governments, including the Ukrainian government, putting me on a blacklist and the U.S. government and the UK government doing all kinds of reprisals. That to me is what a real reporter is. That's how you can identify them, not by people who are constantly patted on the head by Democratic Party officials, people who are never threatening in any way to anyone in power. According to verified news sources, Amy Klobuchar and this congressman mean people who don't ever defy their worldview, who never question it, but who serve it.

 

This spreading of election-related misinformation and disinformation is particularly troubling given the emerging use of artificial intelligence to mislead voters. With some ballots for the 2024 election being sent out as early as this December, it is important that proactive measures are promptly taken so that voters can trust the information that is provided to them. It is for this reason that we request responses to the following questions by November 3, 2023.

 

● What is Amazon’s existing policy to address the spread and amplification of election misinformation and disinformation by Alexa? What steps have been taken to improve the accuracy of information repeated by Alexa?

 

● How is Amazon vetting responses from contributors, particularly responses pertaining to our elections?

 

I mean, are you comfortable with Democratic Party officials being this fixated on what information is available to the public about our elections and which information ought to be banned? The scheme is very ripe for abuse to me. They go on:

 

● In advance of the 2024 elections, what additional protections does Amazon intend to implement to prevent the spread of election misinformation and disinformation?

 

● What procedures does Amazon make available for users or others to raise concerns or complaints of misinformation shared by Alexa?

 

Thank you for your attention to these important issues. We look forward to your response. (Amy Klobuchar, Joseph D. Morelle. Letter to Jeff Bezos, October 19, 2023)

 

I mean, this is as heavy-handed and despotic as it gets. This is just one example, but it's a particularly vivid one to me because it shows you how the environment functions. This all started with a Washington Post article claiming that precious Alexa has been defiled and vandalized by these ruffians on Substack and Rumble, who weren't even verified by news organizations and now it deserves a letter from the Senate and House to Jeff Bezos saying, “We expect you to fix this. We expect you to impose greater controls on the flow of information on all Amazon products, especially as it concerns our election.”


House Report Details FBI-Ukraine Partnership

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on July 11, 2023 

 

The thing that has turned out to be so menacing is that it is not just these companies making these decisions on their own as oligarchical despots. It is they are taking orders from the U.S. government because the U.S. government exerts extreme amounts of power over them. The U.S. government can punish these Big Tech companies in all sorts of ways and has threatened to do so repeatedly in the event that they fail to comply. That's what the Twitter Files was. That's why corporate media instructed everyone to ignore the Twitter Files and called it a Nothing Burger. Because this is the dirty secret of establishment power the Internet is being increasingly controlled and censored. If you go back and read the literature in the mid-1990s about the reason people were excited about the Internet and its advent, they viewed it as a liberatory technology or something that would emancipate individuals from the need to rely on centralized corporate and state control to communicate, to organize. It would allow individuals the freedom to disseminate use without having to rely on corporations or state power to do so. It had the potential to be the most empowering technological innovation in history. That's what its proponents were heralding it as being. Instead, it has been degraded into its exact opposite by allowing the U.S. government to turn it into a tool of mass surveillance, it became the greatest tool of coercion and monitoring in human history. And now it is one of the most closed information systems and one of the most potent propaganda systems in the world – under the control of the U.S. security state, the U.S. government, exercising its power through Big Tech, with the ability to ban all dissent and all dissidents to make them disappear. And that's what happened. And the more that happens, the more the word prison gets created in the mind. That's how real despotism works. 

There's a prelude, an introduction to “1984” that George Orwell wrote and that ended up being banned, I believe it was to 1984. It might have been to his essay about Catalonia. We'll check on that. But the essay didn't get published because the point that Orwell made was too threatening to the West right after World War II. What he was essentially saying was, we're taught that despotism means this blunt use of force, that if you criticize the government, death squads in black costume show up at your house, point guns at your head, haul you off to a gulag, put you in prison. That is a form of despotism. But the much more effective form of control is to so propagandize the public so that dissent disappears in people's minds. The prison exists in people's minds. So that you don't need to punish dissent because there is no dissent or there's so little dissent that it's easily marginalized. And you've just turned the population into such conformists that they believe everything the government says. That is a much more effective form of despotism. It doesn't create a backlash. It creates the illusion of freedom. And that's what the Internet is designed to do, to create the illusion that you have freedom and you have a choice when in reality everybody knows that there's a tiny little range of freedom in which they can function and everything that falls outside the line, no matter who you are – even if you're an heir to one of America's most storied and powerful and political families like RFK, Jr. – if you step outside that line set by the U.S. government in collaboration with Big Tech, you will be silenced, censored and disappeared. 

 

Just to show you how nefarious this is, there's breaking news from today. It's a House Judiciary report. They are investigating the weaponization of the FBI, which is what that Congress is supposed to do. It's the first real investigation into the U.S. security state since the Church Committee in the mid-1970s that uncovered all kinds of abuses of the FBI, infiltrating political groups, monitoring political dissidents and the like on both the left and the right. And here's the new report: “The FBI’s Collaboration with a Compromised Ukrainian Intelligence Agency to Censor American Speech”

 

On February 15, 2023, as part of its investigation into the federal government’s role in censoring lawful speech on social media platforms, the Committee on the Judiciary issued a subpoena to Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, and Alphabet, the parent company of Google and YouTube. Documents obtained in response to those subpoenas revealed that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), on behalf of a compromised Ukrainian intelligence entity, requested—and, in some cases, directed—the world’s largest social media platforms to censor Americans engaging in constitutionally protected speech online.

 

The Committee’s investigation has revealed that the FBI, the federal law enforcement agency responsible for disrupting foreign malign influence, facilitated censorship requests to American social media companies on behalf of a Ukrainian intelligence agency infiltrated by Russian-aligned actors. Regardless of its intended purpose in endorsing the SBU’s requests, the FBI had no legal justification for facilitating the censorship of Americans’ protected speech on social media.

 

The FBI and SBU sent Meta massive spreadsheets containing thousands of accounts to remove, including authentic American accounts. […]

 

On March 1, 2022, FBI Special Agent Kobzanets sent an e-mail to a Meta employee with the subject “additional disinformation accounts.” Copying Agents Kellett and Chan, Agent Kobzanets wrote, “I have a few more Instagram and [Facebook] accounts that according to the SBU, spread Russian disinformation. For your review and action as deemed appropriate.”

 

According to his e-mail signature, Agent Kobzanets was then serving as the “Assistant Legal Attaché” for Ukraine and Belarus. Agent Kobzanets attached two spreadsheets to his e-mail to Meta. One spreadsheet contained a catalog with the timestamp, text, and URL for 15,865 individual items of content on Instagram, including posts, stories, and reels. The other spreadsheet contained a detailed registry of 5,165 Facebook accounts, ostensibly suspected of “spread[ing] Russian disinformation.”

 

Meta suggested establishing a “24/7 channel” to respond to the SBU’s requests although the SBU’s lists contained American accounts, neither the FBI nor Meta appeared to raise concerns about the provenance of the SBU’s “disinformation” registries.

 

Instead, the FBI demonstrated a willingness to support and implement the SBU’s calls to take down certain accounts, even though the requests included U.S.-based accounts. For instance, on March 14, Agent Kobzanets sent an e-mail to a Meta employee, writing, “[p]lease see attached a request from the SBU containing Facebook and Instagram accounts believed to be spreading disinformation. The SBU requested your review and if appropriate deletion/suspension of these accounts.” (July 10, 2023, House Judiciary Report) 

 

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So, let's just look at this graphic here, just to get an idea of what has happened, according to this House Judiciary investigation. What they're essentially saying is that a lot of these Ukrainian agencies have been infiltrated by Russian agents, as a result, some of the requests sent by Ukrainian agencies to the FBI – remember, this is the Ukrainian government telling the FBI these are posts we want to be removed from the Internet. Tell Facebook and Google to take this off. And many of those posts were written and expressed by American citizens expressing their free speech. Right. And the Ukrainian government sitting in Kyiv is telling the FBI, to take that information down, offline. So here you see the SBU, which is Ukraine, sending a takedown request to the FBI, which in turn sends that takedown request to Facebook, Instagram, Google and YouTube. So just want you to think about this for a second. You as an American citizen are funding the war in Ukraine. You're sending hundreds of billions of dollars, more than $100 billion now to the government of Ukraine for all kinds of military aid and other types of assistance. The Ukrainian government is then turning around and telling the FBI to take down your post because your speech transgresses the limits that the Ukrainian government wants to exist on what you are and are not allowed to say about the war that you're funding through your government. And the FBI is dutifully complying with the Ukrainian agent's request by pressuring Facebook and Google to remove constitutionally protected speech, according to this committee. Sometimes these agencies are infiltrated by Russia, and so, some of their requests are actually pro-Ukrainian content. But who cares? Who cares if they're infiltrated by Russia or not? The Ukrainians have no business trying to get censored from the Internet the speech of American citizens about a war that the American citizens are funding. And the FBI, independent of everything, has no business pressuring these Big Tech platforms to take down constitutionally protected speech. This is what the federal court has enjoined, has prevented, and has banned after seeing the evidence of what is being done. 

Just to give you a sense of how frequently this is happening here from March 2022, which is the month after the Russian invasion. These little corporate logos reflect how often the FBI sent takedown requests to Big Tech agencies. Here, on Tuesday, they sent them to Facebook, Google, and Instagram; on Wednesday to Instagram; on Saturday to Facebook, Instagram, and Google; on Sunday to Facebook, Instagram on Tuesday to Facebook, etc. 

This is the censorship regime that the U.S. government has created. These are not autonomous decisions of Big Tech. These are pressure campaigns by the U.S. government, in this case working with the Ukrainian intelligence agencies, over what speech is allowed on the Internet. This is a direct assault on the First Amendment, and it's even more offensive here because it's coming not from the American government, which is bad enough and unconstitutional, but from some foreign government over which you have no access to exercise, no control, no democratic accountability but that you are funding. To a great extent. And while you're transferring your money to them, they're turning around and trying to censor your speech. If that is, you are a dissident to American establishment orthodoxy. If you're a follower of the Democratic Party, if you are a supporter of Bernie Sanders, AOC. If you like Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio, you don't have to worry. You're fine. These are censorship campaigns aimed at actual dissidents to institutions of American power. That's who gets censored. 

This is the censorship campaign laid out perfectly. It was already menacing enough that Big Tech was doing it. It was more menacing still that the U.S. government is controlling those decisions. And to learn now that the Ukrainian government, which in the past already issued blacklists of American journalists and American activists they accused of being Kremlin propagandists – I've been on those lists before of the Ukrainian government while my tax dollars are being used to fund them in their war. To watch them now, you can see the emails in this report – we hope to have someone from the Judiciary Committee this week to talk about this investigation – but part of this report contains the emails sent by the FBI to Big Tech companies that specifically cite the reports and the demands of the Ukrainian intelligence agencies to watch those emails and that flow of censorship demands and how it functions is really remarkable. And I think, again, what we have to understand is that this is a war on dissent. This is a war to cleanse the Internet of anyone who questions U.S. orthodoxy and to ensure that the Internet is banned from being what it was supposed to be – a source of free information and free expression – into what really is the most potent and most inescapable propaganda weapon ever to be developed. It's aimed right at people's brains and the idea is to cleanse it of the sense that the only information to which people are exposed is information that American power centers want them to think and want them to have. 

That is why I really do regard as the overarching cause the preservation of the few remaining places on the Internet devoted to free speech. Remember, Elon Musk turned into public enemy number one. He was beloved by the global public. He was the person who was going to give us electric cars, save the planet from climate catastrophe, and get us to Mars. Someone who has been a success story in everything he touched. Overnight, he turned into public enemy number one because he bought Twitter based on the promise to just allow a little bit more free speech. Take away that weapon from them. That's how valuable the censorship regime is to them. And now you have the entire U.S. security state creating vast tentacles to ensure that this happens. 

Few remaining places on the Internet genuinely allow free speech. Rumble is one of them. RFK, Jr. has put his channel on Rumble because that's one of the few places where he can go where he knows he won't be censored. These are like outposts of dissent. And obviously, power centers are waging war on them. Rumble already is not available in France because France demanded that Rumble remove R.T. from its platform. The French government switched over to this American corporation and said, we demand you obey our censorship order and take off this news agency that we dislike and want to be silenced and Rumble said no and they were forced to remove themselves from France pending a lawsuit. 

Those attacks are going to come more and more and more and of any platform that is devoted to free speech and that's the reason these platforms are so worth fighting for because that is for now – until we get this kind of decentralized protocol that Jack Dorsey believes is the ultimate solution to decentralize the Internet, to put protocols in the hands of every person and not have it be centralized – until that happens, the only outpost for free speech will be sites like Rumble, or any place devoted to protecting free speech. And if those are lost, we will live in a world dominated by the censorship industry. 

You don't have to worry if you are a good liberal – which is why good liberals aren't worried. In fact, they're happy about this because those are never the people targeted with censorship. It's only real dissidents, people who dislike establishment orthodoxy and who are opposed to establishment power, who are threatened by those and who are the targets of it. And that's how you can identify who they are. 


Interview with Rumble CEO Chris Pavlovski

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on August 22, 2023.

 

Glenn Greenwald: As you can see, we are not in our normal studio. We are instead in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, live, where we are outside of the arena where tomorrow night, the Republican presidential debate, the Trump free Republican presidential debate will take place. But I expect there to be a lot of interesting clashes and a lot of interesting things to cover as well. And we hope to have for you a great lineup of interviews with some of the candidates, some of the other people here who are worth talking to you before night. For tonight, I have with me a very special guest. He is the founder and CEO of Rumble, Chris Pavlovski, who arranged for Rumble to have the exclusive online broadcasting rights for the Republican debate, something that wasn't at all obvious to happen. And yet he managed to make it happen. And we are here to talk to him about that and many other things relating to online censorship and the fight for online freedom. Chris, it is great to see you. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.

 

Chris Pavlovski: Glenn Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here with you in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. First time. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: First time for you in Milwaukee. I guess you said first time as well for you to be on our show if my memory serves. That's right. So we're excited about many of those things. So let's start off with the fact that obviously, Fox is hosting the debate. It has exclusive rights for TV. More and more people these days, though, don't consume TV who are who are under the age of 83. They instead are consuming political content online. And if you want to watch the debate online, there's only one place you can do that with just rumble. How is it that Rumble secured the exclusive right instead of Facebook, Google or any of the other more recognizable platforms from the perspective of, say, the corporate world and big tech?

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yes. So Fox obviously has the broadcast rights. They have the rights to do it on their their website as well. But when it comes to social media platforms and platforms, we were the exclusive provider for that. And we're doing it through the RNC channel on Rumble. And it came about, I would say it's been like earlier this year, it was something that we wanted to bid on doing the whole thing and taking over that one entire debate, maybe getting you there to question the candidates. And then we kind of got to a point where it made more sense to just go after the streaming rights and not have it on any of the other platforms. And that's where we ended up and that's where we are today. And now we have the first and the second debate, which is like I think it's a historic moment for new tech, like any new technology platform, to be able to have something that is this important in the United States. So it's a huge win for Rumble. I think it's a huge win for new tech in general. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah, I see it is definitely a watershed moment for the independent media for the ability to kind of liberate ourselves from the tyranny of big tech. But from the perspective of the Republican Party, which is dominated by a lot of big corporate donors, it's not really that obvious of a choice. This is an incredibly important showcase for the Republican Party to get as many people as possible to watch their candidates headed into the general election, especially the first debate. Why is it that you think they were willing to kind of roll the dice? It's such an obviously safer choice to say we're going to have an exclusive deal with YouTube or with some massive show on YouTube or Facebook. Why do you think they were willing to take this gamble and put their exclusive rights on the Rumble? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yes. So it's I think like when you take a look at all the candidates, like whether it's President Trump, Governor DeSantis, or even Vivek, like they all have profiles and they're all on Rumble and they're they're not very big advocates of big tech. So like, if you just look at the candidates' perspective that you don't have, they're not advocating big tech at all when it comes to the constituents. They're definitely not advocating big tech. So you have this massive constituency that is on Rumble and is promoting and wants to see it on new tech. They don't want to see it on big tech. So I think it was a moment. The RNC thought about it and they made a really good decision in doing that. They also had the same kind of feelings that the constituents and the candidates had when it comes to big tech. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: What are those feelings? What do you perceive as the kind of animosity that Republican constituents have toward big tech?

 

Chris Pavlovski: Well, a perfect example is Congressman Devin Nunes, right. He was one of the first people to join Rumble back in 2020. This is prior to the 2020 elections. And he comes on the platform in the late summer of 2020 and he calls me up. You know, I'm a Canadian guy and I'm thinking, why is a ranking member of the House Intel Committee calling me? I thought I was going under some kind of investigation.

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah, that’s never the kind of call you want, ordinarily. 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah. So I get this call from him and he's like, “Hey, if I bring my podcast to Rumble and I search for my name, am I going to be able to find it?” I'm like, Yeah, of course. How could you not? And he's like, “Well, that's not happening on YouTube.” He joined and within like 2 to 3 months, he has like 2 to 300,000 subscribers on Rumble, whereas on YouTube, in four years he only had like 10,000 subscribers. So that was the first watershed moment. That was like the first major moment for Rumble that kind of opened the eyes to everybody else. And then obviously Dan Bongino came and really set it to a whole new level. So there's that. That's a perfect example. Imagine, you're a Republican that has probably nearly a million constituents in your district and you can't reach your audience, but you can reach a better on Rumble than you could on YouTube. That's a problem. And I think everyone sees that as a problem. And these are how they come to these decisions.

 

Glenn Greenwald: So we're both talking about this as an important moment, a watershed moment in independent media, the ability to liberate ourselves in the oppression of big tech. Ultimately, though, as the person who founded Rumble and now runs it, and it's had a meteoric rise, it's now a publicly traded company on the public markets, what do you see as the kind of 1 or 2 defining differences between, say, Rumble on the one hand and Google's YouTube on the other? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: We are fair. We don't discriminate content. You can search and you'll have the same ability to find content that any other creator has. The deck isn't being stacked against you. You're getting access to tools, you're getting access to monetization tools, and distribution tools that you normally wouldn't get on these incumbent platforms. If you're a small creator, just generally speaking, we're just fair. And these other platforms are not fair and how they treat their creators and how they treat the audience, they're stacking the deck, they're picking and choosing. You could call it censorship, you could call it preferencing and call it whatever you want. The bottom line is they're just not being fair with their audiences and their creators. And I think, like ultimately, you know, we're going to prevail because we're just going to be fair. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: So I've been around the Internet for a long time in the sense that my journalistic career was founded on the Internet. My audience was cultivated on the Internet. I never went and worked for a large media corporation in order to build my journalism career. I only did that much later on once my career was established. And even then I always had kind of one foot in and one foot out in terms of independent media. So it never surprises me to see lies being deliberately disseminated, especially about new entities that are kind of threats to establishment power. And obviously there's no shortage of kind of lies and deceit, mythologies about Rumble. And I know that firsthand because before I decided to bring my nightly show to Rumble, but even these periodic videos that I was doing for a year or so before. I spent a lot of time looking into Rumble’s history to understand what it was I was about to join. And the history of Rumble, the actual history of Rumble, could not be any more different than the perception that people have of it. So as the person who actually founded Rumble and not in 2020 and 2021, when large amounts of people became aware of it. But back in 2013, when you were kind of in obscurity, building it slowly. Talk a little bit about what it was that impelled you to do that. What the idea behind Rumble was and essentially what was the idea that gave birth to this company that has now become so big? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah. Looking in hindsight, it's it kind of all makes sense a lot more. What we started to do and what we were actually looking at back in 2013 when we started. But the whole premise of Rumble was that, Google purchased YouTube in 2006 and post-2006, YouTube became like the de facto platform for video and sucked up basically all the oxygen in the room and everyone went there. By 2009 and 2010 they started introducing programs with multi-channel networks. There were companies called Fullscreen and Maker that basically aggregated content and managed content on the platform. And by 2013 I really started to sense that an opportunity was emerging and that opportunity was that these incumbent platforms, particularly in particular YouTube, were starting to prioritize corporations, big brands, and multichannel networks, and they were prioritizing our friends and family. So Rumble emerged on the premise of simply helping, our aunts, uncles, and friends monetize and distribute their video. Post-2013, YouTube started putting in restrictions from watch hours in order to monetize, minimum amount of subscribers, all these different barriers in order to monetize your video, which then would probably affect your distribution. And basically they they left the small creator. They built their platform on them and they decided to leave them for whatever reason they chose...

 

Glenn Greenwald: What do you mean by small creator? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Like your friends and family. You'd upload a family video like Charlie bit my finger back in like 2007, 2008 like that was got a billion views. The platform was built in a large degree off user generated content. And then obviously they had this huge copyright issues that they also were building their platform on. But that's a whole different story. But the small creator was just totally left behind. They were they were forgotten about. And we saw that as an opportunity to go help the small creator, give them exactly what the big creators are going to get on the monetization and distribution side. And we felt out that was the opportunity. We didn't think that it would go so broad that they would start censoring political candidates and taking it to like, you know, very large influencers. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: Because back then in 2013, maybe there was a case here and there you can point to. But in general, there was no widespread perception, no widespread grievance that YouTube was engaged in political censorship. That wasn't part of anything you thought you were addressing, was it? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah, They were engaged in small creator censorship. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: Exactly. Like it was more commercial than ideological. 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yes. It was very commercials for the purpose of monetizing. And I believe it was probably for the purpose of generating more revenue. And they felt like because we don't know what every single indicators uploading, we've got to be careful what brands and advertisers go with the videos. So we'll let the corporations do that, let them create networks to do that, and then we'll monetize with them better and surface their content more rather than the small guy. And that was essentially the opportunity that we saw. And then it emerged to become something that's so much larger than just the small creator.

 

Glenn Greenwald: And so you pretty much can't read an article now in the corporate media about Rumble that, A, isn't derogatory, that makes sense as you become a competitor of corporate media establishment platforms. One that they perceive they can't control, and whoever they can't control, they will villainize and demonize in some way. But B, you can't read an article that doesn't describe Rumble as some sort of right-wing side as a MAGA side. And I think you can trace it to a couple of events. One is the fact that people like Devin Nunes were the first to really start migrating as a response or a reaction to YouTube's political censorship, that here you have a sitting Congressman routinely being suppressed in all sorts of ways. He wanted to have a place where he could speak freely. But also, I remember when you started recruiting people like myself to do deals where there'd be periodic videos contributed. I went along with people like Tulsi Gabbard and a couple of others. There was a Washington Post article deliberately designed to create the perception that Rumble was a right-wing site, even though the people leaving were myself, who was someone associated with left-wing causes. Tulsi Gabbard, who was a Democratic congresswoman who resigned from the DNC to endorse Bernie Sanders, that doesn't matter. So when you began Rumble, was there some ideological component to its mission? And is there an ideological component to its mission now in the sense of left versus right or Democrat versus Republican? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Our politics, when we started were cats and dogs, you can go look back way back, that's all there was on Rumble. That's as far as our politics went in terms of like, you know, really what we believed in was just treating everybody fairly. Then that permeated into 2020 and 2021. And we just never moved the goalposts. Like, yeah, you're very right. Like we're constantly under attack by the media. We're constantly under attack by, you know, everyone that's, that doesn't like to hear independent voices, wants to silence voices. We're essentially like the only platform that is really kind of fight back in the Covid era really allowed people to speak out against what they believe happened in the election, that you can't find places like that. Rumble was the place where people could voice their concerns and voice anything that they they felt that they could voice at their dinner table. You know, we got to a point where like the conversation me and you can have at a dinner table is not even allowed to happen online anymore. And that's completely wrong. So like your ideology was just treating people fairly and allowing people to have discussions and not moving those goalposts. And that definitely permeated in the later years to being like really sticking strong on the idea of allowing of following through on expression as much as possible. It definitely changed a little bit as I saw what was happening. I can't even imagine a congressman like a Congressman couldn't reach his constituents in an election year prior to the months before an election. That's more concerning to me as an individual than anything else. And like I feel I feel like one of the greatest achievements was that we were allow people to to have voices when other places weren't allowing them to have it.

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah. For me, one of the red lines that was crossed where the concern reached a whole new level was the decision first by Twitter to completely prohibit any discussion of the reporting from the Hunter Biden laptop, from The New York Post, the nation's old newspaper, in the lead up to the 2020 election. It doesn't get enough attention, I think. But Facebook's suppression in that story was more insidious and more subtle, but actually more effective where they decided they were going to algorithmically suppress the story. That was an example where obviously conservatives felt like they were being targeted. Another example that for me was kind of a Rubicon crossing moment was when Rand Paul held a Senate hearing in the United States Senate, where he invited leading epidemiologists to talk about the potential benefits of ivermectin, some of the clinical studies being conducted into it. He, as has happened so many times before, broadcast the committee hearing where those witnesses were brought before the Senate to speak to the American people and YouTube, namely Google, just pulled it off the air. 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah, that's how he ended up on Rumble.

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah. So those are examples where conservatives are being censored. So my question is, the perception arose as a result of these people migrating to Rumble? Well, this is a refuge for conservatives, for conservative dissidents who are being censored. Do you see it that way or have there been examples of left-wing voices, nonconservative voices, or independent voices also being restricted, even if they're not even, political, cultural voices restricted in arbitrary ways or unfair ways who are also migrating to Rumble to escape that? And are they as welcome from your perspective, as conservative voices? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: At first I don't really see it as like a left and right, just a personal perception and a personal opinion on that. I see it as like people who are talking truth to power and are being censored all the time. And there are people that affiliate with the very with the left and people who affiliate with the right. Anybody that goes against certain narratives that they don't like, regardless of what, you know, political affiliation they may have, has a high probability of being censored on the other platforms like we have like, perceived leftists on Rumble. We have perceived people on the right and.

 

Glenn Greenwald: The actual leftist, not just perceived [...] 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Sure. We have actual communists on Rumble, there are some channels there that I've seen. When it comes to how I look at Rumble, we try to be as neutral as possible and not try to lean in any particular direction. At least that's my philosophy as running the company. We don't want to put the finger on the scale in any way. That's exactly why we've succeeded, is because we haven't. And it's very important that we don't. But yeah, we're open to everyone. I welcome everybody on the platform: left, right, up, down, forward, and back. Everyone's welcome on Rumble.

 

Glenn Greenwald: One of the dynamics I've noticed for a long time being a free speech advocate and I am happy to be called an activist for that cause as well, not just as a journalist, but a lawyer. A lot of people love to wade the banner of free speech. Who wants to be called the censor? Who wants to admit it? People love to claim that they're fighting the battle for free speech. And yet, the test really comes when the rubber meets the road, when there actually starts to become a price to be paid for whether or not you're actually willing to offer free speech. And there was a recent controversy where a lot of people were critical of Twitter right before the Turkish election for having complied with court orders to remove specific candidates, specific descendants of the Erdogan government. And the justification of Twitter was if we didn't obey the censorship commands if we didn't take down the people we were told to take down, there was a chance we would be unavailable in Turkey. You had a similar case prior to that where the government of France, not a small country – to put it mildly – ordered you to remove RT, which is the Russian state-owned media outlet, and a couple of other Russian state-owned media outlets as well because the EU had passed a law, shocking law, I think at the beginning of the war in Ukraine that made it illegal for platforms to provide a way for Russian safety to be heard, even if their adult citizens wanted to seek out those platforms.

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For years, U.S. officials and their media allies accused Russia, China and Iran of tyranny for demanding censorship as a condition for Big Tech access. Now, the U.S. is doing the same to TikTok. Listen below.

Listen to this Article: Reflecting New U.S. Control of TikTok's Censorship, Our Report Criticizing Zelensky Was Deleted

I loved Glenn's lil dig at Lex Friedman on Monday's show :) Called him "incredibly dynamic, super charismatic, always very insightful and innovative" lol. And then i thought "wait - i actually know somebody like that!" 💖🤗

She's not a podcaster, tho. She's a professor and she covers lots of interesting topics like economics & governance, tech, media, ethics, game theory, systems theory, etc. Her channel is called "The New Enlightenment with Ashley". I love her videos bc they have depth without being too long, and I'm very visual in my thinking so I love that she uses lots of pictures to illustrate her ideas. She has like a sing-songy cadence to her speech that I found a little hard to get used to at first (I don't know anybody who talks like her lol) but after watching like 2 or 3 videos, I didn't mind it anymore :)  

Anyway, if you guys like Nate Hagens, Dan S., Rebel Wisdom ppl, etc. I think you will like her, too. She has 2 intro videos: the first one below is ...

“Brilliant”, “heroic”, “tenacious”, “integrity personified” - These are some terms I’ve used to describe Glenn Greenwald. But after hearing the Sam Harris segment on Friday’s show, I have to add “absolutely fucking hilarious” to my list of applicable descriptors. Glenn’s sometimes-deadpan dry wit gets a laugh out of a few times a week, but that one had me rolling for 10 minutes solid. So much love, brother!

@ggreenwald I don't know if everyone has watched this already, but I'm going to post it on here anyway because it is such a fantastic conversation.
I'm a contractor who works construction. I work in what may be one of the last industries here in Canada that is completely free of gender or racial "equality" when it comes to hiring. My wife, friends, and most of the people I'm very close with, share a similar deep belief in liberty, freedom and individualism and the deep hatred of any kind of racial or gender politics I do. I really believe in Austrian economics and think socialism can't and has never worked. So clearly, Briahna and Glenn come from the opposite end of the political spectrum and also come from a much different world than I do, but hearing them talk about bringing the left and right together to form coalitions on all the important issues hits hard. I love it. I really think it's what Glenn tries do in his work and I find that so noble. And interesting, as I don't have much access to...

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Trump Mocks Concerns About Epstein; Trump Continues Biden's Policy of Arming Ukraine; Trump and Lula Exchange Barbs Over Brazil
System Update #483

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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 Much of the MAGA world was in turmoil, confusion and anger yesterday –understandably so – after the Trump DOJ announced it was closing the Epstein files and its investigation with no further disclosures of any kind. After all this happened, some attempt was made to try and pin the blame or isolate the blame for all of this on Attorney General Pam Bondi. Yet, Donald Trump himself, today, when asked about all of this, went much further than anyone else when meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the White House again: President Trump actually mocked and angrily dismissed any concerns over the Epstein matter and how it was handled. 

On our second segment, one of the uniting views of Trump supporters over the last four years has been opposition to the Biden administration's policy of arming, funding, and fueling Ukraine in its war against Russia. Yesterday, however, at the same meeting with Netanyahu, Trump announced that he would continue the Biden policy that he had spent so many years criticizing by now providing defensive arms at least to Ukraine, and he did so based on the longstanding neocon/liberal view that Putin is completely untrustworthy and therefore Russia must be thought because of Putin. That's what Trump himself said. 

Then, we’ll comment on Trump’s lengthy tweet attacking Brazil for its ongoing prosecution of former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro, during the BRICS Summit being held in Rio de Janeiro. This was something we were going to cover last night and didn't have time to, but we will tonight. Brazil's President Lula da Silva quickly responded, very defiantly, by basically telling Trump to mind his own business. 

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Last night, we covered quite extensively the decision by the Trump Justice Department, not even six months into the administration, to completely shut down and close and stop all investigations into Jeffrey Epstein, as well as announcing that there will be no further disclosures of any documents of any kind, that whatever they've released so far, which has basically been nothing – not basically, has been nothing – is all you're going to get. 

This is a blatant betrayal of multiple promises made by key Trump officials over the last four years, before they were in the White House, but was also a complete 180 in terms of what key Trump influencers and pundits had been saying, including several pundits who are now running the FBI, such as Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, as well as the Justice Department, including Pam Bondi. 

We even showed you an interview that Alina Habba, the Trump attorney who is now the U.S. attorney for New Jersey, appointed by Donald Trump, did with Pierce Morgan while she was in the government, just in February, where she claimed they have a whole bunch of very incriminating lists with shocking names. She said there's video and there are all kinds of documents that are shocking, in her words, and she said they're going to be released over time because we've gone long enough where people who do these sorts of things, including are involved in the Epstein scandal, have no accountability. She said that is ending with the Trump administration. There's going to be accountability. 

Yesterday, the Trump Justice Department said, “No, there's nothing here. We looked. There's no such thing as a client list.” We know we've been promising and that JD Vance repeatedly said, “Where's the client list?” Donald Trump Jr. said, “Anyone hiding the client lists is a scumbag.” Dan Bongino, Kash Patel, Pam Bondi accused Biden officials of basically covering up predatory pedophilia by refusing to release the Jeffrey Epstein client list. Now, they're saying there's no client list, that thing we've been talking about and accusing Biden officials of hiding and promising to disclose, that doesn't exist. 

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Trump DOJ: There's Nothing to the Epstein Story; State Dept: Syria's Al-Qaeda are No Longer "Terrorists"
System Update #482

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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One of the most significant scandals among MAGA pundits and operatives within pro-Trump discourse generally over the last four years has been the one involving Jeffrey Epstein. 

Now, in less than five months, the DOJ announced today, the one under Pam Bondi, that they are closing the investigation, given the certainty that they say they have that Epstein had no client list. There's no such thing as an Epstein client list, he never tried to blackmail anyone and no powerful people were involved whatsoever with his sexual abuse of minors. They also say that he undoubtedly killed himself: there's no question about that. 

All of this is such a blatant betrayal of what was promised all of these years, such that all but the most blindly loyal Trump followers – like the real cult numbers, a lot of them almost certainly paid to be that – are reacting with understandable confusion and anger over what happened today and over the last several months. We'll delve into all of this and what this means. 

Then, Secretary of State Marco Rubio announced today that the group that al-Golani once led, long known as al-Qaeda's affiliate in Syria, is no longer officially a designated terrorist group. This is al-Qaeda. We'll explore what all of this shows about the utterly vacant and manipulated propaganda terms, terrorist and terrorism. 

As a note, we did not have enough time, so we’ll talk about President Trump’s tweet attacking Brazil and its government, on the day of the BRICS Summit in Rio de Janeiro, some other time soon.

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Earlier today, the Justice Department issued a statement, essentially announcing that they no longer consider any of the questions surrounding what had long been the Epstein scandal to be worthwhile investigation; that essentially all of these questions have been answered, that there's really nothing to look into. 

You can read the Justice Department's statement here.

They're saying this client list that most Trump supporters, I would say, have been accusing the U.S. government, of hiding to protect all the powerful people on this list, now, that they're in power – people like Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino and Kash Patel, now they're in charge – they're saying, no, actually there is no client list at all. There's at least no incriminating client list, whatever that means. 

I don't know if there is a client list or not, but according to them, there's no incriminating client list. I don't know how you can have a client list that's not incriminating: to be a client of Jeffrey Epstein seems inherently incriminating. They seem to have said what the White House briefing said today when asked about this, because as we'll show you, Pam Bondi went on Fox News and was asked, “Are you going to release the client list?” And she said, “It's sitting on my desk for review.” 

Trump had strongly suggested he would order it released. Now they're saying, “You know what? There is no client list.” 

So, all these claims that Jeffrey Epstein had recordings of prominent individuals who he invited to his island, who had sex with minors, evidently, there's no incriminating material of any kind that would implicate any powerful person. Just not there, they checked. They checked the storage closets, they looked under the beds, just couldn't find anything. All the stuff they had been claiming was there for years, screaming and pounding the table on podcasts, making a lot of money over it, too, accusing Biden officials of hiding this all for corrupt ends, just not there. They looked, couldn't find it. 

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Glenn Takes Your Questions on the Ukraine War, Peter Thiel and Transhumanism, Trump’s Middle East Policies, the New Budget Bill, and More
System Update #481

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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I don't know if you heard, but there's some breaking news, and that is that tomorrow is July 4, which in the United States is a major holiday. The Fourth of July is the day that we celebrate our independence from the tyranny of the British Crown. Tomorrow we will be taking the holiday off in large part because the appetite for watching political content or political news apps and some big political story on July 4 is quite reduced and so everyone can use a three-day weekend. 

What we usually do on Friday night is the Q&A session, something very important to us and something that we try to do at least once a week because it's one of the main benefits that we believe not only give to our Locals members but also receive from them. 

It's always kind of a hodgepodge, but it always ends up as one of our most interesting shows, we think, throughout the week, one of the shows that produces the best reaction. Since we're not doing a show on Friday, we're going to do it tonight instead. We have some excellent questions. There's one really confrontational question – I was going to say a bitchy question, but I want to be a little more professional in that – let's say confrontational questioning, critical. We're going to try to deal with that one as well. 

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So one of the things that shows throughout the week is that I happen to speak a lot. I analyze things, I dissect things, I read evidence, I show you videos, I talk to guests, I ask them questions. And what we try to do on our Q&A is to be respectful with the question and give an in-depth answer. 

I'd rather answer four or five by giving in-depth answers that I hope are thought-provoking than just speeding through them. I'd rather do a substantive response to four or five than a quick, superficial one to nine or 10. So let's go do that. 

The first one is from @If TruthBeTold and this is what they asked: 

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Well, let's begin with the fact that there is a reasonably effective instrument for preventing foreign interests and foreign lobbies from exerting influence in our country in a way that's stealthy or covert; that’s the FARA registration, which requires foreign agents acting on behalf of other countries to register as such so that everybody knows if they're slinking around Congress, whispering in politicians' ears, asking for legislation on behalf of a foreign government because they've disclosed it. 

And so if you work for the Iranian government, they're paying you to influence members of the legislator, if you do that for Qatar, if you do it for Russia, if you do it for Saudi Arabia – and the premise of the question correct, huge numbers of foreign interests lobby in the United States, you're required to declare that publicly on a FARA registration form and you can go see those, they're publicly available, and you can see who's lobbying on behalf of foreign governments for pay. 

One of the problems is that, for some reason – and you can fill in the blanks here – AIPAC has become exempt from that requirement. AIPAC is a lobbying group that reports to the Israeli government, meets all the time with the Israeli government, and gets funding from Israeli sources. Ted Cruz tried to deny that AIPAC is operating on behalf of a foreign government. Tucker Carlson asked him, “Well, has there ever been a single position that AIPAC has taken that deviates from the Netanyahu government?” and Ted Cruz said, “Sure, they do it all the time.” And Tucker Carlson said, “Oh, that's great. Why don't you name one?” And of course, Ted Cruz couldn't because it never happens, because AIPAC is an arm of the Israeli government trying to exert influence in the United States. 

And yet, for some reason, for a lot of reasons, in contrast to all the other examples I just named, when you have to fill out a foreign agent registration form, people who work for AIPAC or on behalf of the Israel lobby don't. Their claim is, “Oh, we're not lobbying for Israel. We're lobbying for the United States. We just believe that if the United States does everything that Israel wants, that's good for the United States. We're an American group. We're patriotic. We're America first. We just think that America benefits when it does everything that the Israeli government tells it to do.” 

John F. Kennedy strongly advocated and started to demand that the predecessor group to AIPAC register as an agent of a foreign government. He couldn't understand why it didn't have to, alone among all the other groups. And it never ended up happening because JFK's presidency ended when he was killed. 

Again, I'm not drawing any kind of causal link there. I'm not even trying to imply it. I'm just giving you the chronology as to why that never came back. And since then, nobody has ever talked about that. So, that's one thing. The other is that AIPAC is uniquely well-financed in terms of being a lobby operating on behalf of foreign governments. It hides that in a lot of ways, but I'll just give you an example. In the last Congress, there were two members in particular who AIPAC identified as being too critical of Israel. They were both Black members of Congress who represented primarily Black, poor districts, and the rhetoric started to become, which is threatening to AIPAC, ‘Wait, why are we sending billions and billions and billions of dollars to Israel when Israelis enjoy things like better access to health care and more subsidies for college than our own citizens do, when millions of Israelis have better standards of living than millions of people in the United States, including in my district? Why are we sending the money there instead of keeping it at home and improving our lives? 

Two of the people they identified as highly vulnerable were Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush. I've certainly had criticisms of both of them, particularly Jamaal Bowman, but also Cori Bush – but that's not why AIPAC was interested in moving them from Congress. They poured $15 million – $15 million into a single house district in a Democratic primary – they found this Black politician in St. Louis to challenge Cori Bush, who promised to be an AIPAC puppet, and he has kept his promise. Wesley Bell is his name. He should put AIPAC in the middle of his name because it's much more descriptive of what he is now. And they just removed Cori Bush from Congress and put in this person who is basically the same as Cori Bush, except he loves and worships and devotes himself to Israel, never criticizes it. 

They did the same with Jamaal Bowman. They got George Latimer, who's white, but he was a county executive known in the district, and they poured $15 million into that. I don't know of any other interest group on behalf of a foreign government that has not just the ability, but the brazenness, the willingness, to be so open about destroying people’s careers in Congress that they're not sufficiently loyal to a foreign government. 

So the question is, well, what's the solution? Are you more willing to consider the problem of money in politics? I've never doubted the problems of big money in politics. I've always recognized that there are massive problems with huge amounts of money in politics. The founders did as well. They were capitalists. Obviously, they weren't opposed to financial inequality. They were often very rich themselves, property owners and the like, but they also warned that massive inequality in the financial realm can easily spill over into something they did want to avoid, which is inequality in the political realm or the legal realm. And clearly that's happening. 

The problem is, how do you restrict the expenditure of money for political purposes without running afoul of the First Amendment? Let me just give you an example of what this kind of law would entail. This was at the heart of Citizens United, which was the five-to-four Supreme Court decision in 2010 that invalidated certain amounts of financial campaign finance restrictions on the grounds that it violated the First Amendment. 

Let's say you're a group that wants to improve conditions for the homeless, and you want to bring attention to the problems of the homeless and solutions you really believe in as a citizen; you're just like trying to pursue a political cause that you believe in. You get together a bunch of money from your friends from other groups, you save your money and use that money to publish films, ads and documentaries about which politicians are helping the homeless and which ones are harming them. Then, you also may hire somebody who has influence in Congress, who can get you into doors to talk to members of Congress, to try to persuade them to enact legislation that will help the homeless. If you have laws that say that you can't lobby, you can’t spend money on political advocacy. It's not just going to mean that Israel and Raytheon can't go into Congress or that Facebook and Palantir can't; It's going to mean that nobody can. And that clearly is a restriction on your ability to, not your ability but your right under the Constitution to petition your government for redress, to speak freely about grievances you have against your government. 

I've always thought the better solution than trying to restrict First Amendment rights by eliminating money from politics is to equalize it through public campaign financing. So, if your opponent raises $10 million through billionaire spending or very rich people, the government will match your funds and give you $10 billion. 

We do have matching funds in certain places. We also have a better tradition and culture of small-dollar donors that compete with big-money donors. I mean Bernie Sanders' campaign drowned in money in 2016 because of small donors. AOC has insane amounts of money that largely come from small donors over the internet. Donald Trump had a ton of small donors, in addition to very big ones. Zohran Mamdani, actually, got so much money at the start of the campaign from grassroots donors that he actually asked them not to give anymore because, under the matching fund system of the city, where you can raise money up to a certain level and then they match it, he reached the maximum. He didn't need any more money because he wanted to get the matching funds. 

That has been encouraging; the internet and various fundraising networks enable small donor contributions to a huge amount, making people competitive, who aren't relying on big money. But once you start trying to regulate how people can spend their money for political causes, remember Citizens United grew out of an advocacy group, they were conservative, they produced a documentary, publishing, highlighting and documenting what they believed were the crimes and corruptions of the Clintons before the 2008 election. So, they made a film about one of the most powerful politicians on Earth and it contained information they wanted the general public to see before voting, potentially making her president. And that was, they were told, a violation of campaign finance laws because they were a nonprofit, and under the campaign finance laws in question, corporations, including nonprofits or unions, were banned from spending money 60 days before an election. 

That's why groups like the ACLU and labor unions sided with Citizens United and argued that this campaign finance law, which the court, by a 5-4 decision, overturned, is in fact unconstitutional. People forget the ACLU and labor unions that also would have been restricted, were also part of the urging of the majority decision, even though it's considered a conservative decision. 

I think there are much better ways to equalize the playing field when it comes to lobbying: make AIPAC and all of its operatives and the entire Israel lobby required to register under FARA, just like everybody else does. If they don't, they go to prison, just like anybody else does who doesn't file the FARA forms deliberately or intends to deceive. And then, also, find ways to make the playing field even without telling people, citizens, that they can't spend their money that they earn and that they make on political advocacy, on campaigns to convince the public of certain things against various other candidates. I think there are many better ways to do it than that. 

 

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All right, @TearDrinker asked the following. And this is somebody, I'm quite sure, that if you start crying, he gets so happy, he'll drink your tears. He looks for that. That's who asked this question. So, I think we do have a lot of very noble and benevolent people in our audience but we also have some very dark people in the audience and I think @TearDrinker is one of those. Nonetheless, the question is very good. We all have dark sides, good sides and bad sides. We're very complex. So is our audience. And here's his very good question: 

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I had several people on my show from the start who were vehement opponents of U.S. financing, NATO financing of the war in Ukraine. Jeffrey Sachs was one, John Mearsheimer was another and Stephen Walt was another. We had several people, we had members of Congress, Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, part of the MAGA movement, Rand Paul as well, RFK Jr., when he was running for president. We had a lot of people but Professor Mearsheimer, Jeffrey Sachs and Stephen Walt in particular were overwhelmingly prescient in predicting what would happen, even though at the time you weren't allowed to say this because if you said this, if you said reality, you would get accused of being a Russian propagandist or pro-Kremlin or all the things they use to smear people who are questioning the prevailing propaganda. Just like we saw in this last war, if you questioned U.S. bombing of Iran or the Israeli attack on Iran, you were accused of pro-Mullahs, loving the Ayatollahs, same thing every time. 

One of the things that they were saying is like, “Look, it doesn't matter how many weapons you give to Ukraine, it does matter how much money you hand to Kiev.” Even if it didn't get all sucked up in the massive corruption that has long governed Ukraine – which of course it will, but let's assume it didn’t, let's just say it was a very honest, well-accounted for country driven by integrity and principle and all the money was used for exactly what it was earmarked for – even if that happened and even if the Ukrainian people were incredibly courageous and they were at the beginning but even so… 

You know, there's a dog behavior that I've seen so many times. If you go to a dog park and two dogs are going to fight and they're on neutral ground, no one owns the dog park, the stronger dog is likely to win. But if you took those same dogs and the weaker dog in the dog park was at home and the stronger one in the park went to the house of the weaker dog, the weaker dog would suddenly become very strong. And typically, I'm not saying in all cases, obviously a Poodle and a Rottweiler, it's going to be the same result, but I'm saying when it's even remotely close, when you're defending your home – and this is definitely true in the canine world, they fight much more passionately, much more aggressively, much more confidently. And I think that's the same for human beings. 

And so the Ukrainians were very feisty, very punching above their weight at the beginning but even so, and all these people on my show said it, and I got convinced, that it was true from the very start, even if everything went right for the Ukrainians, even if you give them everything they want, the simple fact that Russia is so much bigger and that this is going to be a ground war of attrition between two neighboring countries, meant that inevitably Russia was going to win. It might take a year, it might take two years, it might take five years. The only possibility is that the Ukrainian population of young men, and as they expanded the draft, it became middle-aged, young to middle-aged men, were going to be obliterated, were going to disappear and obviously were huge numbers of young Russian men, but they have so many more that they can just keep replenishing them and losing that amount without having any real effect on Russia, which is like a gigantic country. And that's what's happened between the people who were killed in Ukraine, the people who fled and deserted, and there are a lot of them. There's basically a generation of Ukrainian men missing, which in turn means women aren't dating and aren't marrying. It just destroys the whole society.

The last time we really heard any promises that there was going to be a change was in 2023. There was going to be this great counterattack during the summer, like David Petraeus and Max Boot and all the people who promised the same thing was going to happen in Iraq with the surge were they telling us, “No, this counterattack is going to change everything.” It didn't change anything. Russia has maintained the 22%, 23%, 24% of Ukraine that they occupied, and they've been expanding more and more. There's no way to stop that unless you send in NATO troops or U.S. troops to have a direct war with Russia, which would by definition be World War III. 

The EU, has these – I'm going to say they're primarily women and I say that because a lot of left-wing parties in Europe ran explicitly on the idea that they were going to put women in foreign policy positions because women are less likely to be militaristic, warmongering, seeking conflict, they're much more likely to rely on diplomacy to resolve disputes because it's more in the woman nature. This was the feminist argument, a very essentialist and reductive view of how women and men resolve conflicts. 

But instead, you look at these warmongers, and you're up there like Ursula von der Leyen, who's the president of the EU. Nobody elected her. She's a maniac, a sociopath. The foreign affairs minister is the former prime minister of Estonia. It's like a million people. She's now like the foreign minister; she goes around demanding more and more war. And then the Green Party in Germany is the worst. They ran on this feminist foreign policy explicitly. And they have Annalena Baerbock as the Foreign Minister: she sounds like something out of 1939, talking about the glories of war. 

And even with all that, the Europeans are going to send in troops, the Americans are going to send in troops and so the more we prolong this war, the more we destroy Ukraine, the country, and the more we sacrifice the lives of Ukrainians. And that has been the neocon argument. It's like, you don't have to worry. Americans aren't dying. It's the Ukrainians who are dying. Remember, they're not fighting voluntarily. They're conscripted. A lot of them are fleeing, a lot of them are deserting. They just don't have the people to fight. 

Over the last couple of weeks, there have been announcements that the U.S. is going to slow down or stop certain weapons transfers that had previously been allocated under the Biden administration. One of the people who is announcing this, who's deciding this, is Elbridge Colby. You remember that Elbridge Colby was one that the neocons tried so hard to stop his confirmation to the high levels of the Pentagon because his view has long been that we have no interest in a lot of the wars we fight, including in Ukraine, including in the Middle East, we ought to be focusing on China and the Pacific. And neocon groups that obviously want the United States focused on fighting in the Middle East, funding Ukraine, were desperate to keep him out. 

There are a few others. Some of those non-interventionists who made the high levels of the Pentagon, like Dan Caldwell, who ended up getting fired because they fabricated leaks against him that were completely fake. We'll do a show on that one time. But there are still several of them. And so Elbridge Colby, when he announced this policy, like, Look, we were going to ship all these munitions and missiles to Ukraine, but now we can't. The reason we can, and we have gone over this before, is because U.S. stockpiles are dangerously low. We don't have these missiles and munitions to give, at least not consistently with making sure that we have enough in the case we want to fight another war. And the reasons are obvious. We've been sending missiles and munitions and drones and everything else we have to Ukraine and to Israel to fuel their wars. 

Israel has multiple wars, not just in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, in Lebanon, in Syria. It has bombed the Houthis many times and attacked Iran. The United States has been arming and funding and just sending huge amounts of weaponry to Ukraine. And also remember, President Trump re-instituted and escalated President Biden's campaign of bombing the Houthis. And the idea was we're going to obliterate the Houthis. After a month, President Trump got the report and saw how much money we were spending, how many weapons we were using, how much money it was costing, and nothing was really getting done. We were killing a bunch of civilians and not really degrading the Houthis at all. And they told him, “Oh, sir, we just need nine more months.” But he ended it because he saw he was being deceived again. And we're very low on military stockpile, even though we spend three times more than any other country on the planet and more than the next 15 countries combined. 

This was one of the reasons why, although we've been told that Israel and the United States together achieved this massive, glorious war victory, Netanyahu and Trump are war heroes, when Trump called on Netanyahu to be immediately pardoned or have his corruption trial stopped, it was like, “Look, he just, with me, won a historic war.” It's very important for Trump and Israel to insist to people that they won this great war, this historic war, in 12 days. 

The reality is that the Israelis really couldn't fight that war for much longer. You saw with fewer and fewer missiles shot by Iran, not even most sophisticated yet, that more and more of a landing. We don't know the full extent of the damage in Israel because journalists will tell you they were absolutely and aggressively censored by the military from showing any hits on government or military buildings. The only things they were allowed to show were the occasional hits by the Iranians on a civilian building here, a residential building there, to create the false impression that they were targeting and only hitting civilian buildings, but a lot of Israel suffered a lot of damage. President Trump said that himself, that Israel took a huge pounding. They didn't have air defenses any longer. They were running out and the United States couldn't continue to supply them. We were running out of our own missiles that we use to shoot down Iranian missiles. Israel and the United States didn't end to that war at least as much as Iran did because we were so low on our stock files because we're fighting so many wars or funding so many wars. And so the argument of the Pentagon and Elbridge Colby is, “Look, we just don't have these weapons to keep giving to Ukraine. We need them for ourselves. If we keep giving them to Ukraine, we're not going to have any on our own and our priority should be our military and our protection and not Ukraine's.” 

If this were really a difference between Ukraine winning the war, if we give them the weapons as defined by NATO, which was always a pipe dream. However, the definition was expelling every Russian troop from every inch of Ukraine, including Crimea, which the Russians would never ever allow to happen. If it were a difference between Ukraine winning or Ukraine just getting rolled over, then I would say, okay, maybe there's a debate to be had. But the reality is we've been feeding them weapons into the fourth year now. It's four whole years, coming up on four years, three and a half years of not just the United States sending billions and billions of dollars, but also Europe, and Ukraine hasn't been saved. Ukraine has been destroyed. Ukrainians haven't been freed. They've been slaughtered in mass numbers. And that's all that's going to happen if we keep sending weapons there. 

Of course, the Europeans are relying on this fearmongering that Putin is not going to stop with Ukraine. He wants to eat up all of Ukraine. He's demonstrated many times that he's willing to do a peace deal that secures a buffer zone in eastern Ukraine that protects the ethnic Russians who speak Russian and feel they've been aggressively discriminated against by the Kiev government. The people of Crimea and various provinces in the east feel closer to Moscow than they do to Kiev. They identify as Russians and not Ukrainians. So, as long as Russia feels that, A, they can protect those people, and B, create a buffer zone between NATO and the West on the one hand and Russia on the other so it can't go right up to their border, they've always said they're willing to reach a deal. 

And remember, Ukraine and Russia they almost reached a deal at the very beginning of the war that didn't call for the complete sacrifice of Ukrainian sovereignty, but only those kinds of buffer zones or semi-autonomous regions to letting them vote, and that was the deal that Victoria Nuland and Boris Johnson swept in and told Ukraine they can't keep and they wanted this war to be a prolonged war to destroy Russia. So this fearmongering that Putin's going to eat up all of Ukraine and he's going to move to Poland and then he's like Hitler, he's going to sweep through Eastern Europe and then Central Europe, back to Austria and Germany and then is going to go to Paris again, this is idiotic. 

The Russians have had a hard time defeating Ukraine, albeit with, obviously, Ukraine's being aggressively backed by NATO. But even if they weren't, they were willing to do a deal that just provides Russian security. But wars always are raw and fearmongering, and so they've convinced a lot of people if we don't back the Ukrainians, Russia is going to just roll over and take over, annex Ukraine and rebuild the Soviet Union under this kind of view of Greater Russia that Putin supposedly has in mind, the way Israel is actually doing, creating Greater Israel. There's so much evidence that contradicts that, so little evidence that supports it, but at the end of the day, where are these people going to come from who are going to fight on the front lines in Ukraine? There aren't many left. We can drown that country with billions of dollars in weapons and the war is still going to end up the way it's going to end up. You may not like it, it may be sad to you, you may wish it were a different way, but that is just the reality. 

There have been experts saying it very bravely, I mean, Jeffrey Sachs used to go on “Morning Joe” all the time, until he started saying this, and he hasn't been on again. People get booted out of mainstream platforms, they get called all sorts of names, Russian agents, Kremlin propaganda, etc., but who cares? Those people were the ones who were absolutely right, which is why we kept putting them on our show. They were by far the most convincing people. And that is the nature of the war in Ukraine and the U.S. role in it. Even if we wanted to keep supplying the weapons, we simply don't have them because we've been fueling and arming far too many wars: our own, Israel's and Ukraine's. That's what happens. 

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I think this is the third question, and it comes from @BookWench. And this person, I believe, is a wench, self-described, I'm not being insulting, they're a wench. And they really like books. And if you're going to be a wench, I think it’s better to be a well-read wench than some ignorant one. It's a good friend of the show, often asks some really great questions. And here's the one submitted by this wench tonight. 

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She’s talking about our show last night. If you haven't seen it, that's a great summary of it. But we talked about the integration of Big Tech companies like Meta, OpenAI and Palantir increasingly into the media, while at the same time, Trump and big media corporations are reaching all sorts of nefarious agreements about what their coverage should and shouldn't be.

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I'll give you a parallel example to make this point, rather than just addressing this one directly. Oftentimes people focus on what words apply, like what inflammatory words apply, what shocking or extreme political jargon applies, and even if that jargon is important, even if it has fixed meaning, even if deserves to be applied, traditionally, I've tried to avoid arguments over words or labels because so many people feel so strongly about them that even if they might be open to your argument on the substance and the merits, the minute you use that word, a lot of people just shut off. 

That was why it took me a few months to call what Israel was doing in Gaza a genocide, not because I doubted that the term applied but just because there are a lot of people open to hearing the facts about what Israel is doing in Gaza and seeing how horrific and criminal and atrocious it is, but the minute you use the word genocide, they just kind of instantly turn away from it. I often make the assessment, I'd rather have the channel open for communication than use a word that I know that's just going to close that channel. 

A lot of times, though, it does become necessary to use that term, I don't just mean genocide, but a term that can't have that effect because it's indispensable to understanding the situation. And that's how I came to see the word genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing, even more so. You can't really talk about Gaza without talking about that intent. It's not my guess about that; it's based on the statements that the Israelis have made about their war objectives and then their actions that align with it. But in general, I like to avoid those kinds of words. 

Fascism is definitely one of them. I promise fascism is similar to my problem with genocide and there are a lot of other words like this. There are a lot of words that get thrown around that even if they have a clear and fixed meaning, the people throwing them around aren't very capable of defining in a very concrete, specific way what the words mean. Fascism, to me, has almost become colloquial for just, like, Hitler-like or authoritarian or using aggressive racist themes combined with abuse of government power but the word and concept Fascism is a lot more complex than that, and it involves a lot more prongs than that. 

People study fascism for years in universities. There are graduate programs where you study fascism. It's a philosophy, it's an ideology that was developed in a very specific historical context. It ended up shaping the Italian government in the 1930s under Mussolini and then, of course, the Germans; you could argue Franco in Spain also was an expression of it. But I just feel like throwing the word fascism around at Trump or the Republicans, or especially, of all, it means a kind of aggressive authoritarianism. It just doesn't serve any purpose because I think the Biden administration was extremely authoritarian in lots of different ways. I think most administrations of the last 25 years have been. Very few people spent more time vocally, vehemently condemning Bush-Cheney than I did. I wrote books about it, including arguments that they ought to be prosecuted for things they did, spying on Americans without warrants, torturing people and kidnapping them off the streets of Europe. But I don't think I ever called them fascists. Not because someone had studied or done that, would have been offended or argued that it didn't apply, but just because I don't think it helps the conversation any. 

I think one of the worst things the Biden administration did is essentially commandeered the power of Big Tech to control political discourse in the United States, dictating to Big Tech what they ought to suppress and what they are to permit. In doing so, they absolutely warped and suppressed crucial debates about COVID, about Ukraine, about even election integrity that ought to have been aired. One of the things that bothered me about it so much was that you had the government on the one hand and corporate power on the other in the form of Big Tech and the Biden administration was basically annexing the power of Big Tech and corporate power to control free speech. 

I often pointed out that, ironically, the Democrats love to call Donald Trump a fascist, uniting state and corporate power, eliminating the separation between them, where they each have different objectives, sometimes overlapping, sometimes not, but uniting them as one entity working toward exactly the same goal. That was what Hitler did. There was no arms industry that wasn't under the control of the government. There was no private sector not under the control of the government, all working toward a common theme and a common unity. 

That is what's happening here as well as these major corporations like OpenAI, Palantir and Facebook more and more directly and expansively integrate into the military, into the intelligence community, into the government. But there are other factors, other prongs of fascism as well, and people debate it. And so if I were to say that, oh, this is fascism, the Trump government is fascist or the Biden administration is fascist, it might be satisfying to people who want to hear that and who believe that. But for a lot of people, they would just turn that off as Fox junk in the case of Biden or MSNBC junk in the case of Trump, and oftentimes that is what it is, just junk. It's people spewing it without having any idea what those terms mean, just to get maximum emotional catharsis or provoke emotional reactions. 

I would much rather do what we did last night, which is spend 45 or 50 minutes, maybe an hour, however much we spent, showing people exactly what's happening, showing this integration between corporate and state power for surveillance purposes, for military purposes, for intelligence gathering. Talk about the dangers of it in a way that I hope people are open-minded, because we're showing them the evidence. The minute you start using terms that they're kind of inherently going to repel or just recoil from, I feel like I can call it fascism and congratulate myself, but I don't feel like it does much good. I feel like actually does the reverse. If these terms were very clearly agreed to specific meanings that everyone understood, I wouldn't have a problem with using them when they applied, but since they don't at all, I think these words are obfuscated. 

But I did point out last night, and I will say again, that integrating corporate and state power is a hallmark of fascism and whether all the other hallmarks of fascism are present, it's extremely dangerous for the reasons we delved into extensively last night if you want to understand more how we think about that and what we said you can, if you haven't already, check out last night's show

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All right, next question @KKtowas, who says this:

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I don't want to be too cavalier about paraphrasing this. The question did do a good job of describing it. I'd rather show the actual words. If you haven't heard it, it's really worth watching. I definitely understand why it provoked this question. 

So, let me focus on the part that I do actually feel comfortable paraphrasing, which is Ross Douthat did ask Peter Thiel, “Do you favor the continuation of the human race? Is this something that you actually think is a good thing?” 

Elon Musk has been asked this before. Part of what Elon Musk wants to do is make sure humanity is multiplanetary, starting with life on Mars. A lot of people think, ‘Oh, you must think that's because humanity on Earth is doomed; otherwise, why is it so important to you to make humanity multiplanetary?’ There are other reasons why you might, but that's a suspicion, and not just to make it multiplanetary because the Earth is doomed, but also to transform what it means to be human. 

This kind of philosophy has been popular among these more extreme Silicon Valley types of Transhumanism, something that transcends humanity or fundamentally transforms it. Typically, I think merging humanity with technology or with a machine for a superior being, it's definitely how a lot of them think of artificial intelligence. I, one time, got a root canal, which I hate as much as anybody – I think I hate it more, but probably everyone hates it equally – but one of the only good things about it is that it lasts for two hours. I have the time to sit and listen to podcasts that ordinarily I wouldn't have time to listen to, or the inclination, just because I have to have my brain distracted. I can't, even if my mouth is totally numb and I don't feel it. I don't like hearing what the dentist is doing. I don't want to think about what tools he's using and why. There's almost no job I'd rather have least than being a dentist and just constantly being in someone's mouth every day looking at their teeth. But whatever. So, I try to distract myself and one of the ways I did so is I listening to Mark Zuckerberg's appearance on Joe Rogan. He was talking at length about his vision that soon we're going to take all these devices, virtual reality devices and AI devices, and they're no longer going to be exterior instruments that we wear, like Googles on our head or phones or earpieces or things in our phone. It's going to be part of our anatomy. He was talking about drilling into brains in order to have this technology part of the human brain, and at first he said the first use is going to medical, somebody has a neurological injury or some other serious neurological problem, this machine will help them with that functionality. But critically, he was talking as well about an ultimate merger between technology and human beings, which in one way may not change the nature of human beings in the beginning. It's just kind of another instrument. You can imagine this earpiece. Say you wear an earpiece of the kind people commonly use now to listen to things on a computer, connected by Bluetooth to their phones. Does it really change humanity if, instead of just having this come in and out, it's just now implanted in our ears? Does it change humanity? Well, when you start talking about the brain and changing how our brains think and produce thought, or having AI be the future of what a human being should be, but in a spiritual form, that's clearly transhumanistic. That's transforming what a human being fundamentally is. 

There are all kinds of questions that come with that. If you believe in a soul, does this have a soul? And the way Mark Zuckerberg was so cavalier in talking about it, I found very creepy. 

Let me just say one thing. I think the question referenced that Peter Thiel stuttered when he answered and kind of had big pauses. Peter Thiel always does that. The reason is – and he's talked about this before, he's autistic – and that means you don't have the same capacity for social interaction. 

One of the things he said that I found super interesting was what he thinks the benefit of being autistic, not severely autistic, where you aren't verbal, can't interact with people at all, but somewhere on the spectrum of where he places himself. When you don't have autism and you're very clued into social cues – and we are social and political animals, we do interact as groups, we are not solitary beings – that if you're so aware of social cues and you're constantly receiving what social cues are, in a way it's making you more conformist, kind of morphing you into society, you understand what society expects of you, you understand what the society thinks, you understand what you're supposed to say in most situations. And he was saying that that can really make you conformist. It can kind of just make you part of this blob. Whereas he sees his autism as almost a gift because feeling detached, excluded, or isolated from majoritarian societal sentiments, ethos and mores forces you to see things differently, to look at things differently. And then that, of course, is the kind of thing that can lead to innovation and invention. Steve Jobs was not autistic, but he actually has said in interviews, people don't talk about this, but it's so true, that had he not taken LSD and had experience with other hallucinogens, he never would have invented the iPad or various Apple products, that it was that kind of transcendent thought that enabled him to have this vision that he otherwise wouldn't have had. On some level, mind-altering drugs can be analogized to autism and so, yes, Peter Thiel stutters; he stumbles. Oftentimes, it seems like he's sweating or having difficulty answering the question, but in reality, it's autism and the way he speaks. But it does affect how people perceive him. 

Let me show you this clip that the question asked, because I think it's really worth hearing him in his own words. 

Video. Ross Douthat, Peter Thiel, TikTok.

Let me say a couple of things about this. People who think about changes in the future are often looked at as strange and weird because generally, the future is something we can't really imagine. 

I remember when I was young, I'm still young, but I remember when I was younger, when I was a child, and I used to go visit my grandparents. My grandfather was born in 1904. My grandmother was born in 1910. I spent a lot of time over there when I was younger and I constantly thought about how bizarre it was that they were born into a world that didn't have airplanes, didn't have radio, didn't have television, didn't really have phones and then during their lifetime, like all this technology that previously had been considered unthinkable – how is something going to fly in the air over the Earth? How are people going to talk to each other using weird connective machines? Or television that started off black and white and then became color, or film that started silent and then became with audio. All these things were unthinkable at the beginning and I kept thinking how strange to be born into a world where this unthinkable technology didn't exist, and then suddenly it arrives, and it just changes your world. All those technologies, obviously, had a major effect on the world. Then I had my own experience. I was born in 1967. I was 24, 25 when the internet started really being something that I used in my life, and, obviously, that's a major transformative innovation. If you had thought about the internet before it happened, it would seem inconceivable; people who describe the future in ways that seem inconceivable always come off as very strange and weird. So, I think we ought to acknowledge that. 

But I want to say two things on the other side, as kind of big caveats. One is the idea of a billionaire; until you really interact with billionaires, it's hard to explain what they're like, and I've had pretty close interactions with many of them. Obviously, I founded a media company with one of them, Pierre Omidyar, who I think is worth like $12 billion or whatever. A lot of other people in Silicon Valley whom – I've gotten to know some – ‘being rich’ doesn't describe that, like the amount of wealth that you have, like when you're a billionaire, you don't think of yourself as just rich, you start thinking about what you can do to change the world, change the government, change countries, change culture. It's so much power; it's so much money. 

With power and money comes, in almost every case, being surrounded by sycophants: people constantly flattering you, saying yes to everything that you think, say and want, because power means you can do so many things for people that benefit their lives and if they know that you have that, they're going to want to flatter you so that there's a chance you're going to give those things to them. Obviously, it makes people in that situation so detached from reality and so enamored of themselves just because all their influences tell them that they are brilliant, and that they're a genius and that they see things people don't see. 

Sometimes, that may be true, there are probably billionaires, I guess I know a couple, who I would consider extremely smart, but the majority of them, including ones I've worked with, I can tell you, I'm not going to say they're dumb. They're mediocre. Sometimes they have like an idiot savant skill that turned into a company that just exploded at the right time. Everyone's success has partly some luck. You have to be in the right place at the right time and a lot of these people who walk around thinking they're brilliant and have the power with their billions of dollars to bring those visions to fruition and to convince people that they should, are not even remotely close to as smart as they think. 

So, when they start getting these visions and everyone around them tells them how brilliant they are and everything about their lives is reinforcing their own brilliance, I do think that can be a very twisted and dangerous dynamic. Then there is this very specific billionaire culture, especially the ones that came out of Silicon Valley, that believes that they are the kind of people society ought to progress and evolve and transform into, and that the society just doesn't facilitate that. The society punishes success; it impedes a transformative kind of Übermensch, to use a Nietzschean expression. And they have ideas like they want to just start new societies, they want to buy a country, or buy so much land that it can become its own country and they just create a society from scratch where they're the overlords and they create rules. Obviously it then extends to like, maybe we shouldn't even do it on Earth, let's start our own society on Mars or wherever and it becomes this very utopian and dystopian vision driven by a tiny number of people who have no real pushback or tension between the things that come out of their mouths into their from their brains into their mouths and then try they can try and make reality and have the power to make reality. But a lot of that is, I think very alarming; we ought to be very, very, very skeptical of that, even in the cases where it might be promising. 

A lot of this just depends on what you think. If you're a complete nihilist and atheist, and you just believe everything is just kind of a nihilistic evolution, no purpose, no spirit, no soul, we just keep evolving over millions of years, and human beings are just where we are now, it’s just one stop along the way, and our next destination is something totally different, it probably wouldn't bother you. But if you have a kind of idea of something essentialist about being human that turning us into beings that exist in an AI vat and eliminating us, every part of us, except our intellect, may not be an advancement, that may be a destruction of humanity while maintaining the facade of it, this is the kind of stuff that I think requires a great deal of introspection, a great deal of thought, a great debate involving the whole society. 

But because billionaires have this ability to just push things along with no constraints, AI is just exploding really with no safeguards. I mean, there are some superficial safeguards, like if you use ChatGPT or the commercial ones, they don't let you do certain things that could easily be done, but you can imagine how it's actually being developed. And the people who don't want those safeguards to exist are using AI without those safeguards. None of this is being understood. None of it is being analyzed or studied. 

I'm not an alarmist at all about technology, even including AI. But I think it's more this kind of narcissism and this self-adoration that naturally develops in billionaires that gives them far too much confidence in their own ability to push humanity into directions that they think it should go and really don't need much debate to do it because their brains are sufficiently advanced to make those decisions and see those things on their own and the proof is that they became billionaires. That's how the reasoning works. That, I think, is the most dangerous dynamic rather than the specific things. 

And yeah, when Peter Thiel starts saying, “I'm not sure humanity should continue, okay, I'll say yes, just because you obviously think it's extremely creepy if I don't, but I'm going to add that maybe we should exist in some other form,” I hope people are disturbed by that. I'm not saying necessarily opposed to it, but I hope they're disturbed by it, in a way that they kind of demand some time and reflection in order to consider. 


 

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