Glenn Greenwald
Politics • Culture • Writing
SYSTEM UPDATE FLASHBACK: The West Embraces Online Censorship
Video Transcript
October 25, 2024
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Note: This is a System Update Flashback revisiting some of the many instances of Western governments or political figures attempting to suppress speech and control the internet.


More Censorship Pressure 

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on Oct.10, 2023

 

We have been reporting for almost two years now on the fact that the top priority of Western centers of power is to implement a rigorous fiscal and legally endorsed regime of censorship that primarily controls the principal means that we use to communicate with one another, to disseminate information and ideas and to receive our news, which is the Internet, and particularly the small handful of large platforms that have commandeered the power over the flow of information. And there have been all kinds of reporting, of course, on all the different ways that Western governments are attempting to influence and coerce censorship to demand that views that they regard as threatening to be banned. Every new crisis, including the election of Trump, Brexit, Russiagate, the 2020 election, January 6, COVID, the war in Ukraine and, now, the war in Israel, is seized upon – every single one of them seized upon – as justification for more and more censorship. That is how this censorship regime has been fortified. 

One of the things that has happened without much media attention – we cover it every time it happens when we can – is that governments around the world, around the democratic world, are now adopting laws that empower them explicitly to wield the centers of power. It had been the case that they were doing it informally. The Twitter files, of course, were about how the CIA, the FBI and Homeland Security would pick up the phone and call Facebook and Google and Twitter and say, hey, what about this tweet? Why are you on this one? We want this one banned. There's a disinformation tweet about COVID, here's one about Ukraine: We want these gone. And a federal court recently ruled that the Biden administration's fixation on doing this violates the First Amendment. One of the gravest attacks on free speech, said the court ruling, in decades, if not in the history of the judiciary. 

But governments are really not content any longer to use that kind of informal threat or that kind of shaming or the leverage they have over these companies because they regulate them, because they dole out benefits and said they're now adopting legal frameworks that lay out the powers that they have and provide for punishments, serious punishments if major social media platforms do not comply with their censorship demands, it is now a crime or illegal not to censor in the way that Western governments want. I can't overstate how repressive that is. We talk all the time about how China would impose all sorts of restrictions on the flow of political speech in China. That's exactly what Western governments are doing, and they're doing it by law. We covered the enactment and the approval of the Online Safety Act in the UK. Look at how Orwellian that is: The Online Safety Act, is trying to make the Internet safer for you by keeping away from you unsafe or dangerous ideas. 

We have been reporting on the law that is pending in Brazil, which would be one of the most repressive of all but, at the last minute, its enactment was prevented because Google and Facebook went to the mat to argue against it. The point that the Brazilian Supreme Court banned them from doing that further, ordered the executive of those companies to appear at the Federal Police for interrogation over the activism in which they were engaged to stop the law. 

One of the most repressive laws – and we've talked about the law in Canada as well recently – is the C-11 law which isn't quite as extreme as the UK law. And the most extreme of all is actually the one that has now been adopted by the EU, which is the Digital Services Act, an incredibly benign-sounding law that in fact is incredibly repressive. And they have been building up, they have been laying the foundation for months – we've been reporting on every step of the way – to essentially create a perception that the failure on the part of social media companies to censor in accordance with their demands is dangerous, it's causing the flow of disinformation and hate speech, it's fortifying Russian propaganda. 

As I said, the war in Israel and Gaza is not even three days old and already the EU official who oversees this new censorship, who advocated for it, who's been a longtime censorship advocate, is a French official who works right under the German president of the EU. He has been working overtime to create the perception publicly that Twitter, Google and Facebook's value to censor is a serious public threat that the EU now has to do something about. And one of the tactics that censors always use when it comes time to censor is they always deliberately choose in the first instance someone who is so widely disliked that most of the public won't mind when those people are silenced. They think, Oh, well, I don't really care if this person with this extreme view has been silenced. That person is dangerous. The problem is that the reason they choose someone deeply unpopular is because they know the public will acquiesce and now the precedent has been set. And then once they start using it on less disliked people or people who have a greater proximity to, say, the mainstream, by then it's too late. You've given them that power. Remember the very first people who were depersonalized by big tactics got together and chose to eliminate them from Big Tech platforms all at once. It was in 2018, during the Trump years, of course, and it was Milo Yiannopoulos and Alex Jones, two of the people most widely hated, certainly, by mainstream venues. And everybody said, “Well, I don't really care that Alex Jones can't be heard or Yiannopoulos can't be heard. They spread hatred, they spread lies.” Obviously, it was very predictable, and one of the very few people who stood up and objected at the time was Peter Thiel, who sat on the board of Facebook, and said this was an extremely dangerous precedent within a very short period. They were using it against more and more and more people including people who weren't as disliked as those two. But by the end, the power had been given to them because people didn't object. That's always what they do. 

And so, one of the things the EU is doing, even though they're after Facebook and Google equally, they're focused primarily on Twitter, what is now X, because of how hated Elon Musk has become in neoliberal culture, given his commitment to free speech and his refusal to censor on command and they know that going after Facebook or Google this way will be more difficult, in part because they're just much bigger and more powerful companies. Twitter is a small fraction of the size of Facebook and Google, but also because Elon Musk has become such a hated figure. This is the person who did more than anybody to bring electric cars to the market at a time when liberals are saying that there's no greater priority than reducing our dependence on fossil fuels. You would think he would be a hero, and yet he's hated. Because he bought X by waving the free speech banner and promising to defy censorship orders. He's been far from perfect in that. We've covered and criticized him when he has violated his own principles, but he has allowed a lot of people who were previously censored to be heard and they're enraged by it. They are media elites and political elites and they know that if they focus on Elon Musk with the use of this new area, there will be enough people happy about it simply because they hate Musk and believe that he's allowing too much free speech, that very few people will object and they'll have this power to go and use it against Facebook and Google and everyone else that they want to use it for. 

They know that emotions are extremely high about the war in Israel in the West; it is essentially a unified consensus in the mainstream that it is the duty of the West to support Israel. The monuments in Germany, France, the UK and the U.S. have all been lit in solidarity with Israel and support for Israel. The EU, the UK and the U.S. have all pledged across political parties to do everything possible to support Israel. They know that this is the issue that provokes the most emotions right now. And so, today they wrote a letter to Twitter, X, threatening Elon Musk that “you are going to pay a huge price if you don't censor more.” And they cited an allegation that he's allowing disinformation right now, specifically about Israel, knowing that that would be designed to get people on their post-censorship side. 

Here is the news article from Reuters but what we really want to go through and show you is the letter sent by this leading EU official, which we will because I don't think you will believe just how heavy-handed, authoritarian and dictatorial it is and its tone and its sentiment. 

You see the headline:

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The EU's industry chief told Elon Musk that disinformation was spreading on his X messaging platform since the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas' surprise attack on Israel, urging him to take countermeasures in line with new EU online content rules.

 

Thierry Breton said on Tuesday he had indications that X, formerly known as Twitter, was being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the European Union. (Reuters. October 10, 2023)

 

Let me just stop here and say that obviously nobody likes disinformation in principle. The problem is who has the power to determine what's true and what's false. And I honestly can't fathom the level of drooling authoritarianism necessary to trust or want to empower government officials like Brenton, the French EU official, with the power to determine what is true and what is false to the point where they have the power to ban anything they decide is disinformation. But that is what this line is. It says it right there. It says urging him to take countermeasures. In line with new EU online content rules, which means that the people who decide what is disinformation and what can and can't be heard are people like Thierry Breton and EU officials. The article goes on. 

 

Breton did not give details on the disinformation he cited. X did not immediately respond to a Reuters request for comment.

 

The online content rules known as the Digital Services Act (DSA) require X and other large online platforms to remove illegal content and to take measures to tackle the risks to public security and civic discourse. (Reuters. October 10, 2023)

 

So, this is the key part. This law purports to require all social media platforms to remove what they regard as illegal content, which includes hate speech and disinformation, and to take measures to tackle the risk to public security and civic discourse, all as determined by the agenda of these EU officials. This is a pure censorship regime. There's no other way to describe it. No drama is needed, no hyperbole. This is a legally enacted EU-wide censorship regime that now entails massive punishments for any large social media platform that refuses to censor in accordance with the dictates, opinion, and agenda of EU officials.

If anyone thinks I'm overstating the case or being melodramatic about it, let us look at the letter sent today by this EU official to Elon Musk. Because, as I said, it's not just the content, the tone that makes it so manifest. What's really going on here? 

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It's on official EU European Commission stationery. It's from Thierry Breton, a member of the EU Commission. He, of course, is in Brussels. These are Eurocrats, the kind of Brussels-based bureaucrats that the people of the United Kingdom decided they did not want to be ruled by when they enacted Brexit because this is the sort of people they are.

 

Following the terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas against Israel, […]

 

So, do you see already what they're doing? They're exploiting these emotions. They're saying, given the outrageous, dangerous terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas against Israel, knowing that most people are horrified by what they saw – as we covered last night – “We have indications”…

 

[…] We have indications that your platform is being used to disseminate illegal content and disinformation in the EU.

 

Let me remind you that the Digital Services Act sets very precise obligations regarding content moderation. […]

 

And as we all know, content moderation is just a liberal euphemism for censorship. But he's saying that there are now very precise obligations regarding content moderation under this new law and now he is about to lay out what those requirements are.

 

First, you need to be very transparent and clear on what content is permitted under your terms and consistently and diligently enforce your own policies. […]

 

Why does the government have the power to require social media platforms to censor in a certain way? He goes on. 

 

This is particularly relevant when it comes to violent and terrorist content that appears to circulate on your platform. Your latest changes in public interest policies that occurred overnight left many European users uncertain.

 

Second, when you receive notices of illegal content in the EU, you must be timely, diligent and objective in taking action and removing the relevant content when warranted. We have. from qualified sources, reports about potentially illegal content circulating on your service despite flags from relevant authorities.

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Third, you need to have in place proportionate and effective mitigation measures to tackle the risks to public security and civic discourse stemming from disinformation. Public media and civil society organizations widely report instances of fake and manipulated images and facts circulating on your platform in the EU, such as repurposed old images of unrelated armed conflicts or military footage that actually originated from video games. This appears to be manifestly false or misleading information.

 

I therefore invite you to urgently ensure that your systems are effective, and report on the crisis measures taken to my team. […]

 

You see how dictatorial these people are, how despotic and authoritarian they are, you are to censor in accordance with our demand, and then you are to report to me on these censorship steps you have taken. 

 

Given the urgency, I also expect you to be in contact with the relevant law enforcement authorities and Europol, and ensure that you respond promptly to their requests. […]

 

So, we have this whole controversy in the United States because the CIA, Homeland Security and the FBI were pressuring Twitter, Facebook and Google to remove information. A court found that it is unconstitutional, but they're in the EU. They're saying we have law enforcement authorities that are going to be contacting you, demanding that you take down certain content. When they do, you had better ensure that you are in contact with the relevant law enforcement authorities and Europol and ensure that you respond promptly to their requests. That is not just a suggestion. That is the requirement of the law now. Social media companies have to obey the censorship orders of European law enforcement agencies, EU agencies, Security State agencies, the DOJ, the FBI equivalent, and the CIA equivalent of Homeland Security. 

In case you thought the orders were done:

 

Moreover, on a number of other issues of DSA compliance that deserve immediate attention, my team will follow up shortly with a specific request.

 

I urge you to ensure a prompt, accurate and complete response to this request within the next 24 hours. We will include your answer in our assessment file on your compliance with the DSA. I remind you that following the opening of a potential investigation and a finding of non-compliance, penalties can be imposed. 

 

Yours sincerely, Terry Brighton.
          (EU Letter to Elon Musk. October 10, 2023)

 

Are you comfortable with that? I cannot fathom how anyone could be. I genuinely can't. It’s one of those issues where somebody who tries very hard to see things from other people's perspectives – actually I work a lot on that with my kids and the importance of not only looking at the world through your own perspective but trying to understand other people's perspectives if they have a view or a conclusion different than your own, instead of just condemning it or denouncing it or rejecting it, you have to first try to understand where that's coming from, what the basis is. It's just empathy, the ability to understand the perspective of other people. This is an issue in which try though I might, I cannot understand how people would think it's a good idea, how they would want and trust government officials do have this power. Except, of course – and you have to be cynical, I guess, to assume this – it's because they believe that these government officials have a perfectly aligned ideology with their own and that therefore the censorship will only be aimed at their political enemies. I still wouldn't want that if I believed that to be the case. In part because I just think it's wrong, intrinsically, and dangerous, intrinsically, but also because I would never be secure. Then, at some point, those leaders will change and then the views about disinformation and hate speech will morph and start to be directed at my own cause or my own views.


Dems Want Amazon to Censor 

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on Oct. 23, 2023

 

That's what's happening with these kinds of overt censorship efforts emanating from elected officials in Washington over the Internet – the thing that we most use and most depend on for the dissemination of information, they now control it. They are able to demand the removal of content. Even with this appellate court ruling that we extensively covered, the Fifth Circuit ruled that the Biden administration committed, in the words of the court, one of the gravest frontal assaults on free speech in the history of the judiciary, even with that, Democrats continue to, out in the open, not only not hide it, but brag about it, boast of their efforts to demand, to force and pressure tech companies and social media platforms to censor political speech they dislike. This is one of the most extreme examples yet – and I heard today from a very reliable source, I don't know if it's been publicly reported or not, that the Supreme Court has agreed to hear this case on appeal from the Fifth Circuit. 

This whole campaign, this recent effort was initiated, as it so often is, by corporate media. That is one of the most remarkable parts about this whole censorship regime, is that it is led by its primary advocates. Our most vocal advocates are people who are employees of media corporations who call themselves journalists. These are the primary censorship advocates in the United States: journalists are the enemy of free expression and of free speech in the United States, corporate journalists in particular. And what happens is they have this roster of “disinformation experts,” this whole industry of this fake expertise, funded by Pierre Omidyar, Bill Gate, and George Soros. It really is that small handful of billionaires. I'm sorry, that sounds like a conspiracy theory but under every disinformation rock, one finds that along with funding by the U.S. government and British intelligence agencies, are this tiny group that controls this industry and therefore defines what is and is not disinformation. The newspapers, like the Washington Post, justify these disinformation experts' claims as a basis for publishing articles claiming that some site ought to be censored because it produces so much disinformation. Even though the irony, of course, is nobody produces more disinformation than these media outlets themselves, and often the disinformation experts on whom they rely. 

All of this started on October 7, when The Washington Post published an article with this headline: “Amazon's Alexa has been claiming the 2020 election was stolen.” 

 

The popular voice assistant says the 2020 race was stolen, even as parent company Amazon promotes the tool as a reliable election news source — foreshadowing a new information battleground (The Washington Post, October 7, 2023)

 

“Foreshadowing a new information battleground” meaning the Washington Post has opened up a new front in the information war because they are now finding new reasons why free speech platforms that refuse to censor like Substack and Rumble, a new reason why they now need to be controlled and banned because they're responsible for contaminating Alexa, the noble and sacred oracle of truth, with claims about the 2020 election. And so much of this is going to intensify more than you can anticipate, more than I can anticipate, as we head toward the 2024 election, especially if, as looks likely, Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. There are no limits that they will recognize when it comes to doing everything possible to ensure Donald Trump cannot win. They'll censor, they’ll lie, they'll propagandize beyond what they did in the 2020 election when most media ratified the CIA lie that Hunter Biden's laptops and the documents that came from it were inauthentic frauds and “Russian disinformation.” And then Big Tech censored those stories. That was extreme. Wait until you see what they're going to do to the 2024 election. So, here's what The Washington Post – the seed they planted:

 

Amid concerns the rise of artificial intelligence will supercharge the spread of misinformation comes a wild fabrication from a more prosaic source: Amazon’s Alexa, which declared that the 2020 presidential election was stolen.

 

Asked about fraud in the race — in which Joe Biden defeated President Donald Trump with 306 electoral college votes — the popular voice assistant said it was “stolen by a massive amount of election fraud,” citing Rumble, a video-streaming service favored by conservatives. (The Washington Post, October 7, 2023)

 

There's so much packed in there designed to manipulate people's brains, including the fact that Rumble is not a conservative site. It is a site on which a lot of conservatives appear because they have escaped and fled from Big Tech censorship. But there are a lot of liberals and leftists on Rumble. There are a lot of independents, people who can't be characterized one way or the other because they're sometimes endorsing views associated with the left and sometimes with the right. There are a lot of people who are just anti-establishment, and a lot of demographic data suggests that at least one-fifth, and even higher, viewers of Rumble identify as Democrats and another 20%, or 30%, as independents. But that's all, of course, a way of trying to suggest that Rumble is inherently untrustworthy because it's a right-wing say, even though it's not. 

I don't know. Are there really any people who regard Alexa as the place they go to learn about the world? Wikipedia, as we documented in the show we did a couple of weeks ago by talking to the Wikipedia co-founder, is one of the worst sewers of disinformation I've ever seen. Everything is geared toward promoting neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who dissents from it is smeared with lies on that site. That site is a font of disinformation, but because it's intended to serve the agenda the Washington Post likes, you'll never see an article like this about Wikipedia. 

 

The 2020 races were “notorious for many incidents of irregularities and indications pointing to electoral fraud taking place in major metro centers,” according to Alexa, referencing Substack, a subscription newsletter service. Alexa contended that Trump won Pennsylvania, citing “an Alexa Answers contributor.”

 

Multiple investigations into the 2020 election have revealed no evidence of fraud, and Trump faces federal criminal charges connected to his efforts to overturn the election. Yet Alexa disseminates misinformation about the race, even as parent company Amazon promotes the tool as a reliable election news source to more than 70 million estimated users. (The Washington Post, October 7, 2023)

 

So, because there are a couple of Substack articles that claim the 2020 election was the by-product of fraud because Rumble doesn't censor that claim and there are a few videos on Rumble claiming that, somehow the sacred Alexa got defiled because it used Rumble and Substack and therefore The Washington Post is trying to create the foundation to say that these sites are dangerous; Amazon should ban them and should only allow The Washington Post and the New York Times to contribute to its services, but not sites that actually allow a multiplicity of views. 

That was The Washington Post performing its function. 

Here now is the news outlet Must Read Alaska, we fact-checked this article and, as we're going to show you, it's entirely true. It just does a very good job of explaining what happened there.  We didn’t want to steal their narrative, I wanted to give them the credit they deserve. 

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Do you see how it migrates from The Washington Post to the Democratic Party, all working together to try and constantly silence and marginalize whatever sites allow dissent or criticism of their orthodoxies? 

I obviously don't need to go through how many lies The Washington Post disseminated about the Iraq war, the 2016 election, and Russiagate. They got Pulitzers for endorsing the CIA's unhinged conspiracy theory about Trump and Russia. They constantly called into question the authenticity of the Hunter Biden laptop to prevent Joe Biden from being negatively perceived by the American voter, by maligning that evidence based on lies, they obviously spread countless lies about COVID and the war in Ukraine. And yet here's what happens now as a result of that Washington Post article:

 

Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Rep. Joe Morelle of New York are concerned that Alexa cites sources they don’t approve of — like the video site Rumble — and they worry about the spread of misinformation leading up to the 2024 election. (Must Read Alaska, October 21, 2023)

 

They definitely do worry about the spread of misinformation leading up to the 2024 election because they intend to disseminate a lot of it. And they don't want any sites that permit people who are there to document the propaganda and deceit that they're using in anticipation of the election.

 

The demands for answers come after a Washington Post story worried that Alexa sometimes refers to Rumble and Substack as sources when answering questions. (Must Read Alaska, October 21, 2023)

 

Here is the letter that Amy Klobuchar and Joseph Morelle wrote to Jeff Bezos on October 19, citing The Washington Post story and nothing else. Needless to say, the Democratic Party, with Biden in the White House and their control of the Senate, has enormous power over Jeff Bezos and his various companies. They awarded contracts to him and Amazon worth billions and billions of dollars. They can punish Amazon and regulate Amazon. He also is the owner of the Washington Post, the outlet that published the story that they're now using,

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Dear Mr. Bezos:

 

As we approach the 2024 elections, we write to express serious concern about recent reporting that Amazon Alexa – a virtual voice assistant tool relied upon by millions of Americans – is repeating false claims about the outcome of the 2020 elections and to request information about your efforts to combat this troubling content.

 

Again, what's crucial here is these are not just ordinary citizens writing to Amazon with their complaints. These are people writing in their official capacity as members of the U.S. Senate and Congress, knowing all the power and influence they have over Jeff Bezos. That reminds me a lot of when U.K. officials wrote to Rumble saying, “I demand to know what you're doing to de-monetize Russell Brand,” obviously trying to intimidate Rumble and other sites to cut off Russell Brand's livelihood, even though he's still, by the way, not been charged – let's remember that Russell Brand still to this date has never been charged, let alone convicted, of any crimes. They tried to coerce various sites, upon the pain of being banned in the UK, to punish Russell Brand. And that's what they're doing here.

 

According to public reports, when asked about the 2020 presidential election Amazon Alexa cited unvetted sources to make false claims about election fraud. While Alexa relies on a variety of sources to answer questions, when asked about the 2020 presidential election it appears that some answers were provided by contributors instead of verified news sources.

 

What is a verified news source? Who verifies these news sources? Who determines what are legitimate news sources and what aren't? We're going to do a segment at the end about a new report from Brazil that Brazil's domestic intelligence agency had CIA and FBI illegally spied on me as reprisals for my reporting, something that has happened many times in my career from other governments, including the Ukrainian government, putting me on a blacklist and the U.S. government and the UK government doing all kinds of reprisals. That to me is what a real reporter is. That's how you can identify them, not by people who are constantly patted on the head by Democratic Party officials, people who are never threatening in any way to anyone in power. According to verified news sources, Amy Klobuchar and this congressman mean people who don't ever defy their worldview, who never question it, but who serve it.

 

This spreading of election-related misinformation and disinformation is particularly troubling given the emerging use of artificial intelligence to mislead voters. With some ballots for the 2024 election being sent out as early as this December, it is important that proactive measures are promptly taken so that voters can trust the information that is provided to them. It is for this reason that we request responses to the following questions by November 3, 2023.

 

● What is Amazon’s existing policy to address the spread and amplification of election misinformation and disinformation by Alexa? What steps have been taken to improve the accuracy of information repeated by Alexa?

 

● How is Amazon vetting responses from contributors, particularly responses pertaining to our elections?

 

I mean, are you comfortable with Democratic Party officials being this fixated on what information is available to the public about our elections and which information ought to be banned? The scheme is very ripe for abuse to me. They go on:

 

● In advance of the 2024 elections, what additional protections does Amazon intend to implement to prevent the spread of election misinformation and disinformation?

 

● What procedures does Amazon make available for users or others to raise concerns or complaints of misinformation shared by Alexa?

 

Thank you for your attention to these important issues. We look forward to your response. (Amy Klobuchar, Joseph D. Morelle. Letter to Jeff Bezos, October 19, 2023)

 

I mean, this is as heavy-handed and despotic as it gets. This is just one example, but it's a particularly vivid one to me because it shows you how the environment functions. This all started with a Washington Post article claiming that precious Alexa has been defiled and vandalized by these ruffians on Substack and Rumble, who weren't even verified by news organizations and now it deserves a letter from the Senate and House to Jeff Bezos saying, “We expect you to fix this. We expect you to impose greater controls on the flow of information on all Amazon products, especially as it concerns our election.”


House Report Details FBI-Ukraine Partnership

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on July 11, 2023 

 

The thing that has turned out to be so menacing is that it is not just these companies making these decisions on their own as oligarchical despots. It is they are taking orders from the U.S. government because the U.S. government exerts extreme amounts of power over them. The U.S. government can punish these Big Tech companies in all sorts of ways and has threatened to do so repeatedly in the event that they fail to comply. That's what the Twitter Files was. That's why corporate media instructed everyone to ignore the Twitter Files and called it a Nothing Burger. Because this is the dirty secret of establishment power the Internet is being increasingly controlled and censored. If you go back and read the literature in the mid-1990s about the reason people were excited about the Internet and its advent, they viewed it as a liberatory technology or something that would emancipate individuals from the need to rely on centralized corporate and state control to communicate, to organize. It would allow individuals the freedom to disseminate use without having to rely on corporations or state power to do so. It had the potential to be the most empowering technological innovation in history. That's what its proponents were heralding it as being. Instead, it has been degraded into its exact opposite by allowing the U.S. government to turn it into a tool of mass surveillance, it became the greatest tool of coercion and monitoring in human history. And now it is one of the most closed information systems and one of the most potent propaganda systems in the world – under the control of the U.S. security state, the U.S. government, exercising its power through Big Tech, with the ability to ban all dissent and all dissidents to make them disappear. And that's what happened. And the more that happens, the more the word prison gets created in the mind. That's how real despotism works. 

There's a prelude, an introduction to “1984” that George Orwell wrote and that ended up being banned, I believe it was to 1984. It might have been to his essay about Catalonia. We'll check on that. But the essay didn't get published because the point that Orwell made was too threatening to the West right after World War II. What he was essentially saying was, we're taught that despotism means this blunt use of force, that if you criticize the government, death squads in black costume show up at your house, point guns at your head, haul you off to a gulag, put you in prison. That is a form of despotism. But the much more effective form of control is to so propagandize the public so that dissent disappears in people's minds. The prison exists in people's minds. So that you don't need to punish dissent because there is no dissent or there's so little dissent that it's easily marginalized. And you've just turned the population into such conformists that they believe everything the government says. That is a much more effective form of despotism. It doesn't create a backlash. It creates the illusion of freedom. And that's what the Internet is designed to do, to create the illusion that you have freedom and you have a choice when in reality everybody knows that there's a tiny little range of freedom in which they can function and everything that falls outside the line, no matter who you are – even if you're an heir to one of America's most storied and powerful and political families like RFK, Jr. – if you step outside that line set by the U.S. government in collaboration with Big Tech, you will be silenced, censored and disappeared. 

 

Just to show you how nefarious this is, there's breaking news from today. It's a House Judiciary report. They are investigating the weaponization of the FBI, which is what that Congress is supposed to do. It's the first real investigation into the U.S. security state since the Church Committee in the mid-1970s that uncovered all kinds of abuses of the FBI, infiltrating political groups, monitoring political dissidents and the like on both the left and the right. And here's the new report: “The FBI’s Collaboration with a Compromised Ukrainian Intelligence Agency to Censor American Speech”

 

On February 15, 2023, as part of its investigation into the federal government’s role in censoring lawful speech on social media platforms, the Committee on the Judiciary issued a subpoena to Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, and Alphabet, the parent company of Google and YouTube. Documents obtained in response to those subpoenas revealed that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), on behalf of a compromised Ukrainian intelligence entity, requested—and, in some cases, directed—the world’s largest social media platforms to censor Americans engaging in constitutionally protected speech online.

 

The Committee’s investigation has revealed that the FBI, the federal law enforcement agency responsible for disrupting foreign malign influence, facilitated censorship requests to American social media companies on behalf of a Ukrainian intelligence agency infiltrated by Russian-aligned actors. Regardless of its intended purpose in endorsing the SBU’s requests, the FBI had no legal justification for facilitating the censorship of Americans’ protected speech on social media.

 

The FBI and SBU sent Meta massive spreadsheets containing thousands of accounts to remove, including authentic American accounts. […]

 

On March 1, 2022, FBI Special Agent Kobzanets sent an e-mail to a Meta employee with the subject “additional disinformation accounts.” Copying Agents Kellett and Chan, Agent Kobzanets wrote, “I have a few more Instagram and [Facebook] accounts that according to the SBU, spread Russian disinformation. For your review and action as deemed appropriate.”

 

According to his e-mail signature, Agent Kobzanets was then serving as the “Assistant Legal Attaché” for Ukraine and Belarus. Agent Kobzanets attached two spreadsheets to his e-mail to Meta. One spreadsheet contained a catalog with the timestamp, text, and URL for 15,865 individual items of content on Instagram, including posts, stories, and reels. The other spreadsheet contained a detailed registry of 5,165 Facebook accounts, ostensibly suspected of “spread[ing] Russian disinformation.”

 

Meta suggested establishing a “24/7 channel” to respond to the SBU’s requests although the SBU’s lists contained American accounts, neither the FBI nor Meta appeared to raise concerns about the provenance of the SBU’s “disinformation” registries.

 

Instead, the FBI demonstrated a willingness to support and implement the SBU’s calls to take down certain accounts, even though the requests included U.S.-based accounts. For instance, on March 14, Agent Kobzanets sent an e-mail to a Meta employee, writing, “[p]lease see attached a request from the SBU containing Facebook and Instagram accounts believed to be spreading disinformation. The SBU requested your review and if appropriate deletion/suspension of these accounts.” (July 10, 2023, House Judiciary Report) 

 

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So, let's just look at this graphic here, just to get an idea of what has happened, according to this House Judiciary investigation. What they're essentially saying is that a lot of these Ukrainian agencies have been infiltrated by Russian agents, as a result, some of the requests sent by Ukrainian agencies to the FBI – remember, this is the Ukrainian government telling the FBI these are posts we want to be removed from the Internet. Tell Facebook and Google to take this off. And many of those posts were written and expressed by American citizens expressing their free speech. Right. And the Ukrainian government sitting in Kyiv is telling the FBI, to take that information down, offline. So here you see the SBU, which is Ukraine, sending a takedown request to the FBI, which in turn sends that takedown request to Facebook, Instagram, Google and YouTube. So just want you to think about this for a second. You as an American citizen are funding the war in Ukraine. You're sending hundreds of billions of dollars, more than $100 billion now to the government of Ukraine for all kinds of military aid and other types of assistance. The Ukrainian government is then turning around and telling the FBI to take down your post because your speech transgresses the limits that the Ukrainian government wants to exist on what you are and are not allowed to say about the war that you're funding through your government. And the FBI is dutifully complying with the Ukrainian agent's request by pressuring Facebook and Google to remove constitutionally protected speech, according to this committee. Sometimes these agencies are infiltrated by Russia, and so, some of their requests are actually pro-Ukrainian content. But who cares? Who cares if they're infiltrated by Russia or not? The Ukrainians have no business trying to get censored from the Internet the speech of American citizens about a war that the American citizens are funding. And the FBI, independent of everything, has no business pressuring these Big Tech platforms to take down constitutionally protected speech. This is what the federal court has enjoined, has prevented, and has banned after seeing the evidence of what is being done. 

Just to give you a sense of how frequently this is happening here from March 2022, which is the month after the Russian invasion. These little corporate logos reflect how often the FBI sent takedown requests to Big Tech agencies. Here, on Tuesday, they sent them to Facebook, Google, and Instagram; on Wednesday to Instagram; on Saturday to Facebook, Instagram, and Google; on Sunday to Facebook, Instagram on Tuesday to Facebook, etc. 

This is the censorship regime that the U.S. government has created. These are not autonomous decisions of Big Tech. These are pressure campaigns by the U.S. government, in this case working with the Ukrainian intelligence agencies, over what speech is allowed on the Internet. This is a direct assault on the First Amendment, and it's even more offensive here because it's coming not from the American government, which is bad enough and unconstitutional, but from some foreign government over which you have no access to exercise, no control, no democratic accountability but that you are funding. To a great extent. And while you're transferring your money to them, they're turning around and trying to censor your speech. If that is, you are a dissident to American establishment orthodoxy. If you're a follower of the Democratic Party, if you are a supporter of Bernie Sanders, AOC. If you like Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio, you don't have to worry. You're fine. These are censorship campaigns aimed at actual dissidents to institutions of American power. That's who gets censored. 

This is the censorship campaign laid out perfectly. It was already menacing enough that Big Tech was doing it. It was more menacing still that the U.S. government is controlling those decisions. And to learn now that the Ukrainian government, which in the past already issued blacklists of American journalists and American activists they accused of being Kremlin propagandists – I've been on those lists before of the Ukrainian government while my tax dollars are being used to fund them in their war. To watch them now, you can see the emails in this report – we hope to have someone from the Judiciary Committee this week to talk about this investigation – but part of this report contains the emails sent by the FBI to Big Tech companies that specifically cite the reports and the demands of the Ukrainian intelligence agencies to watch those emails and that flow of censorship demands and how it functions is really remarkable. And I think, again, what we have to understand is that this is a war on dissent. This is a war to cleanse the Internet of anyone who questions U.S. orthodoxy and to ensure that the Internet is banned from being what it was supposed to be – a source of free information and free expression – into what really is the most potent and most inescapable propaganda weapon ever to be developed. It's aimed right at people's brains and the idea is to cleanse it of the sense that the only information to which people are exposed is information that American power centers want them to think and want them to have. 

That is why I really do regard as the overarching cause the preservation of the few remaining places on the Internet devoted to free speech. Remember, Elon Musk turned into public enemy number one. He was beloved by the global public. He was the person who was going to give us electric cars, save the planet from climate catastrophe, and get us to Mars. Someone who has been a success story in everything he touched. Overnight, he turned into public enemy number one because he bought Twitter based on the promise to just allow a little bit more free speech. Take away that weapon from them. That's how valuable the censorship regime is to them. And now you have the entire U.S. security state creating vast tentacles to ensure that this happens. 

Few remaining places on the Internet genuinely allow free speech. Rumble is one of them. RFK, Jr. has put his channel on Rumble because that's one of the few places where he can go where he knows he won't be censored. These are like outposts of dissent. And obviously, power centers are waging war on them. Rumble already is not available in France because France demanded that Rumble remove R.T. from its platform. The French government switched over to this American corporation and said, we demand you obey our censorship order and take off this news agency that we dislike and want to be silenced and Rumble said no and they were forced to remove themselves from France pending a lawsuit. 

Those attacks are going to come more and more and more and of any platform that is devoted to free speech and that's the reason these platforms are so worth fighting for because that is for now – until we get this kind of decentralized protocol that Jack Dorsey believes is the ultimate solution to decentralize the Internet, to put protocols in the hands of every person and not have it be centralized – until that happens, the only outpost for free speech will be sites like Rumble, or any place devoted to protecting free speech. And if those are lost, we will live in a world dominated by the censorship industry. 

You don't have to worry if you are a good liberal – which is why good liberals aren't worried. In fact, they're happy about this because those are never the people targeted with censorship. It's only real dissidents, people who dislike establishment orthodoxy and who are opposed to establishment power, who are threatened by those and who are the targets of it. And that's how you can identify who they are. 


Interview with Rumble CEO Chris Pavlovski

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Click here to watch the clip. Originally broadcast on August 22, 2023.

 

Glenn Greenwald: As you can see, we are not in our normal studio. We are instead in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, live, where we are outside of the arena where tomorrow night, the Republican presidential debate, the Trump free Republican presidential debate will take place. But I expect there to be a lot of interesting clashes and a lot of interesting things to cover as well. And we hope to have for you a great lineup of interviews with some of the candidates, some of the other people here who are worth talking to you before night. For tonight, I have with me a very special guest. He is the founder and CEO of Rumble, Chris Pavlovski, who arranged for Rumble to have the exclusive online broadcasting rights for the Republican debate, something that wasn't at all obvious to happen. And yet he managed to make it happen. And we are here to talk to him about that and many other things relating to online censorship and the fight for online freedom. Chris, it is great to see you. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.

 

Chris Pavlovski: Glenn Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here with you in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. First time. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: First time for you in Milwaukee. I guess you said first time as well for you to be on our show if my memory serves. That's right. So we're excited about many of those things. So let's start off with the fact that obviously, Fox is hosting the debate. It has exclusive rights for TV. More and more people these days, though, don't consume TV who are who are under the age of 83. They instead are consuming political content online. And if you want to watch the debate online, there's only one place you can do that with just rumble. How is it that Rumble secured the exclusive right instead of Facebook, Google or any of the other more recognizable platforms from the perspective of, say, the corporate world and big tech?

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yes. So Fox obviously has the broadcast rights. They have the rights to do it on their their website as well. But when it comes to social media platforms and platforms, we were the exclusive provider for that. And we're doing it through the RNC channel on Rumble. And it came about, I would say it's been like earlier this year, it was something that we wanted to bid on doing the whole thing and taking over that one entire debate, maybe getting you there to question the candidates. And then we kind of got to a point where it made more sense to just go after the streaming rights and not have it on any of the other platforms. And that's where we ended up and that's where we are today. And now we have the first and the second debate, which is like I think it's a historic moment for new tech, like any new technology platform, to be able to have something that is this important in the United States. So it's a huge win for Rumble. I think it's a huge win for new tech in general. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah, I see it is definitely a watershed moment for the independent media for the ability to kind of liberate ourselves from the tyranny of big tech. But from the perspective of the Republican Party, which is dominated by a lot of big corporate donors, it's not really that obvious of a choice. This is an incredibly important showcase for the Republican Party to get as many people as possible to watch their candidates headed into the general election, especially the first debate. Why is it that you think they were willing to kind of roll the dice? It's such an obviously safer choice to say we're going to have an exclusive deal with YouTube or with some massive show on YouTube or Facebook. Why do you think they were willing to take this gamble and put their exclusive rights on the Rumble? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yes. So it's I think like when you take a look at all the candidates, like whether it's President Trump, Governor DeSantis, or even Vivek, like they all have profiles and they're all on Rumble and they're they're not very big advocates of big tech. So like, if you just look at the candidates' perspective that you don't have, they're not advocating big tech at all when it comes to the constituents. They're definitely not advocating big tech. So you have this massive constituency that is on Rumble and is promoting and wants to see it on new tech. They don't want to see it on big tech. So I think it was a moment. The RNC thought about it and they made a really good decision in doing that. They also had the same kind of feelings that the constituents and the candidates had when it comes to big tech. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: What are those feelings? What do you perceive as the kind of animosity that Republican constituents have toward big tech?

 

Chris Pavlovski: Well, a perfect example is Congressman Devin Nunes, right. He was one of the first people to join Rumble back in 2020. This is prior to the 2020 elections. And he comes on the platform in the late summer of 2020 and he calls me up. You know, I'm a Canadian guy and I'm thinking, why is a ranking member of the House Intel Committee calling me? I thought I was going under some kind of investigation.

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah, that’s never the kind of call you want, ordinarily. 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah. So I get this call from him and he's like, “Hey, if I bring my podcast to Rumble and I search for my name, am I going to be able to find it?” I'm like, Yeah, of course. How could you not? And he's like, “Well, that's not happening on YouTube.” He joined and within like 2 to 3 months, he has like 2 to 300,000 subscribers on Rumble, whereas on YouTube, in four years he only had like 10,000 subscribers. So that was the first watershed moment. That was like the first major moment for Rumble that kind of opened the eyes to everybody else. And then obviously Dan Bongino came and really set it to a whole new level. So there's that. That's a perfect example. Imagine, you're a Republican that has probably nearly a million constituents in your district and you can't reach your audience, but you can reach a better on Rumble than you could on YouTube. That's a problem. And I think everyone sees that as a problem. And these are how they come to these decisions.

 

Glenn Greenwald: So we're both talking about this as an important moment, a watershed moment in independent media, the ability to liberate ourselves in the oppression of big tech. Ultimately, though, as the person who founded Rumble and now runs it, and it's had a meteoric rise, it's now a publicly traded company on the public markets, what do you see as the kind of 1 or 2 defining differences between, say, Rumble on the one hand and Google's YouTube on the other? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: We are fair. We don't discriminate content. You can search and you'll have the same ability to find content that any other creator has. The deck isn't being stacked against you. You're getting access to tools, you're getting access to monetization tools, and distribution tools that you normally wouldn't get on these incumbent platforms. If you're a small creator, just generally speaking, we're just fair. And these other platforms are not fair and how they treat their creators and how they treat the audience, they're stacking the deck, they're picking and choosing. You could call it censorship, you could call it preferencing and call it whatever you want. The bottom line is they're just not being fair with their audiences and their creators. And I think, like ultimately, you know, we're going to prevail because we're just going to be fair. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: So I've been around the Internet for a long time in the sense that my journalistic career was founded on the Internet. My audience was cultivated on the Internet. I never went and worked for a large media corporation in order to build my journalism career. I only did that much later on once my career was established. And even then I always had kind of one foot in and one foot out in terms of independent media. So it never surprises me to see lies being deliberately disseminated, especially about new entities that are kind of threats to establishment power. And obviously there's no shortage of kind of lies and deceit, mythologies about Rumble. And I know that firsthand because before I decided to bring my nightly show to Rumble, but even these periodic videos that I was doing for a year or so before. I spent a lot of time looking into Rumble’s history to understand what it was I was about to join. And the history of Rumble, the actual history of Rumble, could not be any more different than the perception that people have of it. So as the person who actually founded Rumble and not in 2020 and 2021, when large amounts of people became aware of it. But back in 2013, when you were kind of in obscurity, building it slowly. Talk a little bit about what it was that impelled you to do that. What the idea behind Rumble was and essentially what was the idea that gave birth to this company that has now become so big? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah. Looking in hindsight, it's it kind of all makes sense a lot more. What we started to do and what we were actually looking at back in 2013 when we started. But the whole premise of Rumble was that, Google purchased YouTube in 2006 and post-2006, YouTube became like the de facto platform for video and sucked up basically all the oxygen in the room and everyone went there. By 2009 and 2010 they started introducing programs with multi-channel networks. There were companies called Fullscreen and Maker that basically aggregated content and managed content on the platform. And by 2013 I really started to sense that an opportunity was emerging and that opportunity was that these incumbent platforms, particularly in particular YouTube, were starting to prioritize corporations, big brands, and multichannel networks, and they were prioritizing our friends and family. So Rumble emerged on the premise of simply helping, our aunts, uncles, and friends monetize and distribute their video. Post-2013, YouTube started putting in restrictions from watch hours in order to monetize, minimum amount of subscribers, all these different barriers in order to monetize your video, which then would probably affect your distribution. And basically they they left the small creator. They built their platform on them and they decided to leave them for whatever reason they chose...

 

Glenn Greenwald: What do you mean by small creator? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Like your friends and family. You'd upload a family video like Charlie bit my finger back in like 2007, 2008 like that was got a billion views. The platform was built in a large degree off user generated content. And then obviously they had this huge copyright issues that they also were building their platform on. But that's a whole different story. But the small creator was just totally left behind. They were they were forgotten about. And we saw that as an opportunity to go help the small creator, give them exactly what the big creators are going to get on the monetization and distribution side. And we felt out that was the opportunity. We didn't think that it would go so broad that they would start censoring political candidates and taking it to like, you know, very large influencers. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: Because back then in 2013, maybe there was a case here and there you can point to. But in general, there was no widespread perception, no widespread grievance that YouTube was engaged in political censorship. That wasn't part of anything you thought you were addressing, was it? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah, They were engaged in small creator censorship. 

 

Glenn Greenwald: Exactly. Like it was more commercial than ideological. 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yes. It was very commercials for the purpose of monetizing. And I believe it was probably for the purpose of generating more revenue. And they felt like because we don't know what every single indicators uploading, we've got to be careful what brands and advertisers go with the videos. So we'll let the corporations do that, let them create networks to do that, and then we'll monetize with them better and surface their content more rather than the small guy. And that was essentially the opportunity that we saw. And then it emerged to become something that's so much larger than just the small creator.

 

Glenn Greenwald: And so you pretty much can't read an article now in the corporate media about Rumble that, A, isn't derogatory, that makes sense as you become a competitor of corporate media establishment platforms. One that they perceive they can't control, and whoever they can't control, they will villainize and demonize in some way. But B, you can't read an article that doesn't describe Rumble as some sort of right-wing side as a MAGA side. And I think you can trace it to a couple of events. One is the fact that people like Devin Nunes were the first to really start migrating as a response or a reaction to YouTube's political censorship, that here you have a sitting Congressman routinely being suppressed in all sorts of ways. He wanted to have a place where he could speak freely. But also, I remember when you started recruiting people like myself to do deals where there'd be periodic videos contributed. I went along with people like Tulsi Gabbard and a couple of others. There was a Washington Post article deliberately designed to create the perception that Rumble was a right-wing site, even though the people leaving were myself, who was someone associated with left-wing causes. Tulsi Gabbard, who was a Democratic congresswoman who resigned from the DNC to endorse Bernie Sanders, that doesn't matter. So when you began Rumble, was there some ideological component to its mission? And is there an ideological component to its mission now in the sense of left versus right or Democrat versus Republican? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Our politics, when we started were cats and dogs, you can go look back way back, that's all there was on Rumble. That's as far as our politics went in terms of like, you know, really what we believed in was just treating everybody fairly. Then that permeated into 2020 and 2021. And we just never moved the goalposts. Like, yeah, you're very right. Like we're constantly under attack by the media. We're constantly under attack by, you know, everyone that's, that doesn't like to hear independent voices, wants to silence voices. We're essentially like the only platform that is really kind of fight back in the Covid era really allowed people to speak out against what they believe happened in the election, that you can't find places like that. Rumble was the place where people could voice their concerns and voice anything that they they felt that they could voice at their dinner table. You know, we got to a point where like the conversation me and you can have at a dinner table is not even allowed to happen online anymore. And that's completely wrong. So like your ideology was just treating people fairly and allowing people to have discussions and not moving those goalposts. And that definitely permeated in the later years to being like really sticking strong on the idea of allowing of following through on expression as much as possible. It definitely changed a little bit as I saw what was happening. I can't even imagine a congressman like a Congressman couldn't reach his constituents in an election year prior to the months before an election. That's more concerning to me as an individual than anything else. And like I feel I feel like one of the greatest achievements was that we were allow people to to have voices when other places weren't allowing them to have it.

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah. For me, one of the red lines that was crossed where the concern reached a whole new level was the decision first by Twitter to completely prohibit any discussion of the reporting from the Hunter Biden laptop, from The New York Post, the nation's old newspaper, in the lead up to the 2020 election. It doesn't get enough attention, I think. But Facebook's suppression in that story was more insidious and more subtle, but actually more effective where they decided they were going to algorithmically suppress the story. That was an example where obviously conservatives felt like they were being targeted. Another example that for me was kind of a Rubicon crossing moment was when Rand Paul held a Senate hearing in the United States Senate, where he invited leading epidemiologists to talk about the potential benefits of ivermectin, some of the clinical studies being conducted into it. He, as has happened so many times before, broadcast the committee hearing where those witnesses were brought before the Senate to speak to the American people and YouTube, namely Google, just pulled it off the air. 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Yeah, that's how he ended up on Rumble.

 

Glenn Greenwald: Yeah. So those are examples where conservatives are being censored. So my question is, the perception arose as a result of these people migrating to Rumble? Well, this is a refuge for conservatives, for conservative dissidents who are being censored. Do you see it that way or have there been examples of left-wing voices, nonconservative voices, or independent voices also being restricted, even if they're not even, political, cultural voices restricted in arbitrary ways or unfair ways who are also migrating to Rumble to escape that? And are they as welcome from your perspective, as conservative voices? 

 

Chris Pavlovski: At first I don't really see it as like a left and right, just a personal perception and a personal opinion on that. I see it as like people who are talking truth to power and are being censored all the time. And there are people that affiliate with the very with the left and people who affiliate with the right. Anybody that goes against certain narratives that they don't like, regardless of what, you know, political affiliation they may have, has a high probability of being censored on the other platforms like we have like, perceived leftists on Rumble. We have perceived people on the right and.

 

Glenn Greenwald: The actual leftist, not just perceived [...] 

 

Chris Pavlovski: Sure. We have actual communists on Rumble, there are some channels there that I've seen. When it comes to how I look at Rumble, we try to be as neutral as possible and not try to lean in any particular direction. At least that's my philosophy as running the company. We don't want to put the finger on the scale in any way. That's exactly why we've succeeded, is because we haven't. And it's very important that we don't. But yeah, we're open to everyone. I welcome everybody on the platform: left, right, up, down, forward, and back. Everyone's welcome on Rumble.

 

Glenn Greenwald: One of the dynamics I've noticed for a long time being a free speech advocate and I am happy to be called an activist for that cause as well, not just as a journalist, but a lawyer. A lot of people love to wade the banner of free speech. Who wants to be called the censor? Who wants to admit it? People love to claim that they're fighting the battle for free speech. And yet, the test really comes when the rubber meets the road, when there actually starts to become a price to be paid for whether or not you're actually willing to offer free speech. And there was a recent controversy where a lot of people were critical of Twitter right before the Turkish election for having complied with court orders to remove specific candidates, specific descendants of the Erdogan government. And the justification of Twitter was if we didn't obey the censorship commands if we didn't take down the people we were told to take down, there was a chance we would be unavailable in Turkey. You had a similar case prior to that where the government of France, not a small country – to put it mildly – ordered you to remove RT, which is the Russian state-owned media outlet, and a couple of other Russian state-owned media outlets as well because the EU had passed a law, shocking law, I think at the beginning of the war in Ukraine that made it illegal for platforms to provide a way for Russian safety to be heard, even if their adult citizens wanted to seek out those platforms.

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Listen to this Article: Reflecting New U.S. Control of TikTok's Censorship, Our Report Criticizing Zelensky Was Deleted

For years, U.S. officials and their media allies accused Russia, China and Iran of tyranny for demanding censorship as a condition for Big Tech access. Now, the U.S. is doing the same to TikTok. Listen below.

Listen to this Article: Reflecting New U.S. Control of TikTok's Censorship, Our Report Criticizing Zelensky Was Deleted

Earth’s CRY, Heaven’s SMILE….. 🙏🕉️💚……..

Dear Glenn - This government is seriously criminally negligent. I was attacked on an airplane with directed energy back in 2013. I wrote the FBI and told them. All they did was make a new rule that intelligence can't point a laser at an airline and posted so on Twitter. Then the first Malaysia Airline was crashed by its own pilot. Instead of hijacking the plane, they used this tech to hijack the pilot. Dr. Barrie Trower says they use timed pulses with microwave. The government took their sweet time in protecting the rest of the airlines when it can be done very easily. These are bad dudes. They're all bad in my experience. I keep begging the White House for help. Sometimes I get it. Most times I don't. Please hold authority to account.

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August 24, 2025

Hahaha….’Johnathan Pie Catch Up’ (7 months ago). Wasn’t ‘too’ far wrong? Was he? 🤣🤣🙏🕉️👍💯…….

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Trump Tries to End War in Ukraine; U.S. is Dangerously Low on Weapons and Munitions Former Trump DoD Official Warns
System Update #502

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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The U.S.-finance proxy war against Russia – using Ukraine as its intermediary and pawn, which I think is the best way to describe this war – is now well into its fourth full year. There has been almost no Ukrainian progress over the last 18 months, while Russia slowly, though inexorably, expands the amount of territory in Ukraine it now controls: roughly 23% of that country, with almost all of the frontline movements heading westward as Russia consumes more and more of Ukraine as the war goes on. 

Although it was heresy in the West for at least two years to point out that Ukraine has no ability to achieve the goals of "victory" laid out by the U.S. and NATO at the start, there is now virtually nobody willing to say with a straight face that this is an achievable goal. Two years ago, if you said the Ukrainians can't manage that, they called you a Putin agent. Now, of course, it's conventional wisdom. 

We'll look at Trump’s latest efforts and what their implications are. 

Then: In the first few months of the Trump administration, some particularly vicious backstabbing and internal turf war among the highest levels of the National Security State dominated that part of the administration; this was vicious even by DC standards. All of this resulted in the unjust firing of many top, newly hired officials in the Pentagon, the National Security Council, and elsewhere. 

One of the best of those that got lost as a casualty in that war was the long-time ally of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who occupied a very senior position in the Pentagon. His name is Dan Caldwell. He has used one area of his expertise to warn Americans of something most don't know: namely that the Pentagon – despite having the largest military budget in the world – is running dangerously low on stockpiles of vital weapons, including munitions and missiles, and that this is severely limiting U.S. military options throughout the Middle East and is a source of pressure for why the U.S. wants and needs to end the war in Ukraine. 

We'll talk about how it could possibly be and how that has affected conflicts all over the region over the last several years and continues to do so in Ukraine today. 

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Trump's DC Takeover: Is it Legal? Israel Kills More Journalists, Including Anas al-Sharif; Glenn Reacts to Pete Buttigieg and JD Vance on Israel
System Update #501

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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I am again on the road, specifically in New York City, in a hotel room, as I will be participating in a debate tomorrow night, hosted by the Soho Forum and Reason Magazine, regarding the constitutionality of President Trump's various deportation policies and other related questions. 

I have a lot I want to talk about, beginning with the decision and announcement by President Trump to basically, at least the moment, federalize the Police Department of Washington, D.C., as well as activate the National Guard to patrol the streets of Washington in response to what President Trump says is a serious out of control, crime epidemic. We'll look at both the legality and constitutionality of that decision and some of its implications. 

Also, again, every time we say that we don't think that there's any way for Israel to go any lower, for them to engage in any more horrific atrocities, they somehow do seem to find a way. Last night, they slaughtered five Al Jazeera journalists, including, arguably, the Al Jazeera journalist who has become the eyes and ears of Gaza for most of the time in all of the West; Anas al-Sharif was killed alongside four other journalists. This is now the 278th journalist that the Israelis have slaughtered in Gaza. Israel admits that it was a targeted killing, that they killed him on purpose and the Israeli claim, needless to say, I don't even need to tell you it's so predictable, is that, “Oh, he was Hamas,” and so therefore they were justified in killing him. 

Earlier today, another equally influential and prominent journalist had his house targeted with an Israeli bomb. It didn't kill the journalist, but it killed 10 members of his family. And then when rescue workers came to try to salvage those who were among the survivors, they bombed again, what's called a double tap, and they killed even more people. We have a horrific video of that. It really has gotten to the point where the contempt, the repulsion and condemnation that all decent people around the world have are insufficient for the magnitude of the atrocities. 

Of course, the U.S. government and both parties continue to support it. We'll have a clip from JD Vance for an interview that he gave on Fox News earlier today where he was asked about what he thinks of the Israeli plan to occupy all of Gaza, which, needless to say, has already resulted and will continue to result in even more killing of innocent people at a far more indiscriminate rate. We also have a response from Pete Buttigieg, who was once the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, and somehow parlayed that into a position as Secretary of Transportation under Joe Biden. He was asked about Israel on the Pod Save America podcast and gave the sort of technocratic, meaningless, mealy-mouthed, noncommittal, frightened response that has caused even Democratic Party partisans, let alone everybody else, to absolutely despise Democrats, not even for ideology, just because of their complete cowardice as for ever take a position or say anything whatsoever. He's a McKinsey consultant and that's exactly how he talks about everything: completely dead-eyed, passion-free, afraid to take any position on anything. 

There’s a lot to talk about. 

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Glenn Takes Your Questions on Tucker/Candace v. Nick Fuentes, the Unabomber Manifesto, Independent Media, and More
System Update #500

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

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Welcome to episode 500 of System Update, which means that over the last two years, ever since we launched in December of 2022, 500 times I have sat my ass in this chair, and we have done a program for you. Today is number 500. 

System Update, of course, is our live nightly show that airs every Monday through Friday at 7 p.m. Eastern, exclusively here on Rumble, the free speech alternative to YouTube. 

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Every Friday night, as we're doing tonight, we take questions solely from our Locals members. We try to answer as many as we can.

 You may have noticed as well that, inspired by Donald Trump, all art today in commemoration of 500 shows is in gold, not our typical green and black. No, everything is gold. We went all out for tonight. So, I really hope you enjoy it.

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The first of which is from @alan_smithee. And he asked this:

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One of the reasons why I didn't talk about it, despite obviously being extremely interested in all three of them and the subject matter that they cover, I obviously am a longtime friend of Tucker’s. I used to be on the show, I think more than anybody else, when he was on Fox News, and now, on his podcast, I'm on frequently, maybe the guest who's been on the most as well, not really sure. It's not a competition. I don't know why I have to keep saying I'm at the top of the charts, but just to indicate the frequency, and he's been on our show before. So, I definitely consider him a friend of mine. Candace, I have a good relationship; I would describe it as friendly. I've chatted with Nick over the years a little bit, certainly not near the same level of interaction. 

I had this issue with Matt Taibbi. I was recently on Briahna Joy Gray's show, but also, I might have even been on a different show, where people were trying to ask me about Matt Taibbi and some of the criticism of him. Yeah, we've gotten questions about Matt Taibbi here as well over the past few months about things like his refusal to comment on Israel and Gaza, his infrequent commentary on the First Amendment issues raised by deporting students who speak critically of Gaza, the imposition of hate speech codes on American campuses by the Trump administration to shield Israel from criticism. 

I'm very honest about the fact that when someone is your friend, when you consider someone as your friend, at least for me, I really don't feel comfortable publicly criticizing them. It's actually one of the reasons why I go out of my way not to be friends or have any social ties with the people I'm supposed to be covering in Washington – politicians, major journalists. I've always thought the fact that I don't live in New York or Washington to be one of the greatest benefits for my journalism because I'm not in the middle of their social scenes. I don’t owe any social niceties to them. I don't feel as though if I criticize them, it's going to affect my social life or put me in uncomfortable positions. I take the obligation of friendship seriously. If you're actually somebody's friend, it comes with loyalty, and part of that loyalty is that, if you have problems with what they do and say, you go to them privately. It would take a lot for me to publicly criticize or down someone I consider my friend.

 I'm just being honest about that. Maybe that's not even the right thing to do. I'm not praising myself. I'm telling you how I feel personally. But again, I think if you live in New York, if you live in Washington, and you're integrated into that political media world, that is one of the reasons why it's so incestuous, why they constantly cover for each other, why there's so much groupthink within it. 

They're always talking to each other, for each order. To be part of these social scenes on which they depend, you have to be welcome. Part of being welcome is that you don't stray too far from their dogma. And I've always aggressively kept a very distant arm's length from people in positions of power, from major media figures, so that I don't feel constrained about giving my honest views or critiques or analysis or reporting on them. 

Occasionally, you do become friends with people almost by accident, who then end up in positions of power. Tulsi Gabbard is a good example. I have no problem criticizing Tulsi Gabbard because, whatever good relations I've had with her before, she's now the director of National Intelligence, and I'm not going to pull punches when I have critiques of Tulsi and I am also going to praise her only because I feel the praise is warranted. 

So, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that somebody has risen to a particular position or entered a type of power position, and there's just no getting around the fact that your job requires honest critique. I don't feel like that's the case for any of the people involved here, Tucker, Candace, or Nick Fuentes. I don't feel like any of them is a government official. Obviously, they all do have a great deal of influence in very different ways. So, I don't want to side with any one of them, nor do I want to necessarily say that I think insults or criticisms that they've launched at each other are warranted, but it is an extremely important conversation, so I also don't want to avoid it entirely, because for one thing these are three people, and obviously people understand how influential Tucker and Candace are. They're arguably the two most prominent conservative journalists/pundits, influencers. Maybe you could put Charlie Kirk in there, maybe Ben Shapiro, but Tucker and Candace are both bigger. I mean, Tucker hosted the most-watched show in the history of cable news for five years at the 8 o'clock spot on Fox. He's been on TV for 25 years before that. And Candace is just a powerhouse. She's a force of nature. Whatever you think of her, whatever you think of the Macron stuff, whatever you're thinking for Israel stuff, whatever, I'm leaving that on the side, I'm just saying. 

The fact of the matter is that when Candace left The Daily Wire, which, of course, is founded and run by Ben Shapiro after she had a falling out with Ben Shapiro and Jeremy Boreing, the other co-founder, over her criticism of Israel, which at the time was very mild – she was basically saying, “I don't think we should be bombing and killing children.” – that was pretty much the extent of it which caused this massive upheaval. A lot of people wondered, well, what is she going to do? Just like people wondered what Tucker Carlson was going to do, and they both went on to become, in my view, far more influential. 

I'm not saying that Tucker's position in the mediocre system now is necessarily larger than it is at the 8 o'clock spot on Fox News, but being at the 8 o'clock hour on Fox News comes with a lot of constraints, as he found out when he got fired, despite being the highest rated host on all of cable news. And he's completely liberated of those constraints now, I mean, completely. Completely. He's financially set. Fox is still paying this gigantic contract. He also now has a very successful platform. I mean, he's not worried about saying or doing whatever he wants. I know he feels – he said this before, publicly, not just in our conversations – that there were a lot of things he did as part of his career that he deeply regrets. Just being part of the Washington Group. 

I think he was raised there. I mean, he wasn't raised physically in Washington, but he eventually went there. But his father was very integrated into the U.S. deep state, that we could call it, ties to the CIA, he ran the propaganda arm of the U.S. government, Voice of America, was very, very integrated into that world. He grew up with a lot of wealth and privileges as he will tell you, and so when he got to Washington and got on TV very early on, he really was just immersed in this subculture that led him to believe, or at least not even necessarily to believe but to say a lot of things that he didn't really fully believe, or maybe that you can get yourself to believe things that you don't really believe because you just feel like it's what everyone around you expects you to say. 

Unlike a lot of people who are guilty of the same thing, Tucker has probably more than anybody else been extremely candid about what he regrets, and not only what he regrets, I'm not just talking about support for the Iraq war, I'm talking about the whole support that he gave for George Bush, Dick Cheney, neoconservative ideology, and not just on foreign policy, but also on economic policy and I think it's often overlooked. Everyone sees his head in foreign policies. Even when he was at Fox, he was criticizing Trump for doing things like assassinating General Soleimani, saying, “This is not in our interest. This might be in the interest of neocons or Israel, but why would we risk a war with Iran when that's not in our interest?” He was saying things like that even on Fox. He probably was the single most influential figure who took a lot of MAGA people, a lot of people on the right, and turned them against the war in Ukraine every night. 

I was on his show dozens of times talking about that war to the point where when he got fired from Fox, a bunch of Republican lawmakers ran to Politico or Axios anonymously and celebrated his firing and saying, “Oh, now our lives are going to be much easier. We can now fund the war in Ukraine without as much public pushback.” And that trajectory was because not just that he regretted what he had previously advocated and acknowledged his wrongdoing, but he was and is really determined to kind of repent for it. And he feels like the way to repent for it is by never again allowing himself to be blind. 

He moved out of Washington, used to live in the middle of Georgetown, where Victoria Nuland lived, I think, down the street or the other street. I mean, that's where they all lived. Now, he lives in rural Maine. He also lives on an island in Florida. He purposely took himself to very isolated places that are completely detached from that world, for the same reason as I was just describing. Not only do you feel less constrained, but you see things more clearly. You don't wake up every day and immediately get surrounded by people who are just part of this blob of groupthink and so, you're able to analyze things from a distance. It’s sort of like if you go into a big city and you're on a street corner, the vision that you have of what the city looks like is radically different than if you fly over it because that distance from what you're looking at gives you a better perspective, or at least, maybe not even better, but different. And the same thing happens when you move out of Washington or New York, and you purposely stay away from it, you start to see things more clearly because you're not immersed in it. And I do find that extremely valuable. 

I find that trajectory very, very positive. It's one of the reasons why, probably more than anything else that I've ever done, what caused much of the left turn against me, not all, but much, was number one, my refusal to get on board with Russiagate, but number two, my association with Tucker. I saw early on that there was a real movement within parts of the populist right, which you're now seeing in lots of different ways, not just questioning Israel and foreign policy and war, but also corporatism and the idea of economic populism. And yes, there are lots of deviations from it, but I mean Tucker and a few others were what made me see how real that was and how much of an opportunity there was, and not just to keep yourself in prison in the Democratic Party. 

So, I do believe Tucker's trajectory is real. I do believe that he's sincere and genuine in what he's saying. You never know what's fully in a person's heart, not even your own heart. You can't know for certain. You can deceive yourself about your own motives, your own thoughts and even the people you're closest to, your friends. But I have enough confidence in how well I know him, not just professionally, but personally as well, the time we spent together, the time that we've talked, that I do believe that he's very authentic in what he's saying. I think his trajectory is continuing. I don't think he's stopped at the point where he's going to be. And I think it's been very positive on almost every level. 

So that’s Tucker over here; then let's kind of put Candace in a similar position. I don't know Candace as well, so I can't comment to that degree of confidence about who she is and why she's doing what she's doing, but, two years ago, Candace worked at The Daily Wire, four years ago, she was in Jerusalem with Charlie Kirk celebrating Trump's move of the capital of Israel to Jerusalem, a long-time pipe dream, what seemed like a pipe dream of the furthest, most radicalized Greater Israel fanatics and their supporters in the United States. And there was very little criticism coming from Candace about Israel. In fact, the opposite was true. 

In her case, she's a lot younger than Tucker, she's only been around for not all that long, and I know personally that when you start off doing this work and you're able to spend full time digging into things, if you're minimally a critical thinker, if you're minimally open-minded, your views are going to morph the more you learn, the more you dive into things, the more you experience things. That is healthy and normal. And I do believe that her views, which she most passionately expresses, to which she pays the most attention, are genuine, which isn't the same thing as saying I agree with them all and they're all positive. I'm just saying I believe she also believes the things she's saying. I don't think it's calculated. I don't think it's about grifting. If it were, she could have stayed at The Daily Wire. There are easier ways to make a popular path than doing what she does. 

She defends Harvey Weinstein. She took up that case. There was hardly a public clamoring for that, especially among the audience that she cultivated. Also, the Macron stuff, all the stuff with Israel – she's been excluded from a lot of mainstream corporate media circles to which she used to have complete access and in which she could have risen without limits, obviously She’s very talented, like Tucker, she is a communicator, and she chose a much harder path, and I think that was through genuine conviction. There are many differences between Tucker and Candace, but for that purpose, you can put them together. 

And then you have Nick Fuentes. And just for those of you who haven't seen it, I'm just going to give you this summary of what's happened in the past few months, not going back years. The short version of this is that Nick Fuentes is often very critical of people who seem like they're the closest to him politically. So, he spends a lot of time criticizing Charlie Kirk – I was going to say Ben Shapiro, but I don't think Ben Shapiro is remotely close to Nick Fuentes – but Charlie Kirk on the surface could be. He spent a lot of time criticizing Matt Walsh. And he has also hurled a lot of criticism and might even say insults toward Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson. 

In response, Candace Owens invited him for the first time on her podcast. Although I do think they have far more views in common than differences, the podcast was a bit hostile. I would say it's, in part, because Candace had some acrimonious points to raise with him, but also because – and she played some of these clips, I mean, Nick Fuentes had very harshly attacked her and criticized her, calling her a bitch who doesn't know what she's doing, and if you're going to do that, the people who are your targets are not necessarily going to love you, and so this was really the triggering event. 

She invited him to her podcast. He got a huge audience – between Candace and Nick Fuentes, who has a gigantic following online, in some ways you could argue he's as influential these days as Candace and Tucker, and maybe headed for even surpassing them, which again, generationally is natural – but because that interview was acrimonious and brought out a lot of tensions and personal conflicts, it kind of spilled over online because Nick left that interview and started really condemning Candace, accusing her of sandbagging him in the interview and the like, and then they had a big fight online. 

And then, before you knew it, Tucker asked Candace to come to his podcast. So, you're now talking about Candace Owens on Tucker Carlson's podcast, obviously a gigantic interview. And both of them, I don't know if they planned it, but both of them talked about Nick Fuentes in an extremely derogatory way. I mean, Tucker did acknowledge that, which you cannot deny. It's kind of like you can hate Trump all you want, but there's no denying his charisma, his skill in communicating, and the fact that he's very funny. 

For a long time, it was like heresy to say that, but there's no denying that that's true. I have no trouble admitting that people I can't stand are smart. I think Dick Cheney is very smart. I actually think Liz Cheney is very smart, just to give two examples, a lot of other ones as well. You can acknowledge the skills and assets that people have who you dislike or even despise. It’s not inconsistent. So, Tucker did acknowledge, like, look, Nick Fuentes is spectacularly talented. He is like a very rare, generational talent in terms of his ability to go before the camera, attract attention and be charismatic. But he's not like a ranter and a raver. Nick Fuentes is very well read, very, very informed. There aren't a lot of people who know more about the topics Nick Fuentes covers than Nick Fuentes does. It's very impressive. And that combination of being very charismatic, an extremely adept communicator, just kind of a natural camera presence, and having really smart insights that are grounded not in sensationalism or blind ideology, but lots of reading and thinking and critical evaluation, it's very potent. That's the reason why he's becoming so popular that even people at the heights of Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson can't really ignore it anymore. 

They talked about Nick Fuentes as though he were just sort of some loser, like Tucker was saying, like, “How did he become so influential? He was just this gay kid living in his mother's basement in Chicago.” And I don't think Tucker quite meant it that way, but that is how some of it came off. Both agreed that he was some sort of psyop to destroy the right, that he maybe was a Fed working for the CIA. 

That led Nick to do a series of shows, a couple of segments, where he just tore into Tucker and Candace, particularly Tucker, in a way that suggests that he was: “How can you possibly call me this, Psyop, or this operative, or this person who works for the CIA, when you spent your whole life inside these circles? Candace Owens was the one working for Ben Shapiro, and Tucker Carlson was working for Rupert Murdoch, making millions; Nick Fuentes wasn't. 

Nick's basic point was, like, you’re all very late to this game, like criticizing Israel, talking about the influence of the Israel lobby in the United States. You've only started doing this last year, whereas I've been doing it for years. This is what I think is at the heart of the matter: there are people who have been talking about Israel in this way for a long time. Noam Chomsky did, Norman Finkelstein did. 

One of the most important events was in 2007 when two of the most prestigious political scientists and international relations scholars in the United States, John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, wrote a book called “The Israel Lobby.” First, it was an essay in the London Review of Books, and then it turned into this massive tome, this 700-page book. It’s footnoted to the hilt because they're scholars, and they wrote the book that way. At the time, nobody on the mainstream was willing to say that. It was pretty much confined to the left, where you were free to say it. 

So, at the time, I was more associated with the left, perceived as being on the left. So, I was saying all these things for many years, but it wasn't all that risky for me because of the political camp that people perceived that I was in. I've always had one foot in that left-wing camp back then and one foot in the kind of libertarian, more independent camp, but in both of those camps it was totally fine, totally even welcome to talk about why we do so much for Israel, the evils of Israel, how they control our politics, how we go to war for them, how much money we spend to support them. 

So, I wasn't taking any risks – I've taken risks in my career, but I don't consider that as one – but Nick Fuentes, when he started doing it, was 18 years old, and he had this very promising future inside conservative media. At 18, he'd already been spotted as a talent. He had small shows, but he was making connections with and networking with some of the people who were very influential inside corporate media. People now forget, because now there's a lot of space for talking this way about Israel, but at the time, there was basically none. 

Before Donald Trump, there was almost nobody on the right willing to talk this way about Israel. You had Pat Buchanan, who did it for a long time, going back to the ‘80s, and he was viciously smeared as an anti-Semite. You had Ron Paul, who did the same thing. And then you had Trump kind of come in and create this space, and Nick Fuentes started really looking into it. I'm going into this not because of the personalities, but because I think they raise very broader issues about how all of this has evolved, not just for them, but for the broader discourse. 

Fuentes started off in conservative politics. At first, he thought Israel was our greatest ally and we have to support them: all the standard Republican and conservative views that have dominated both Republican and Democratic Party politics for decades. But then, the more he started questioning it, the more he started becoming vocal about it. And the more he became vocal about it, the more he became shunned inside the conservative media world, in which he had a very bright future. And rather than shutting up, as he was told to do, knowing that that might be better for his career, he couldn't. He just doesn't have that personality type. And he just had to keep examining it and keep saying it, and to say that Nick Fuentes paid a price for that is an understatement. Nick Fuentes has been excluded and booted out of every conceivable precinct of conservative media, even ones that consider themselves radical, dissident and far-right ones. I was playing on the mainstream ones. 

He was physically banned from going to Charlie Kirk's “Turning Points USA” and lots of other conferences like that. He was fired from the media platforms he was starting to develop. He was shunned by the friends that he had made, younger people on the side of the conservative movement. Then, it escalated from there. He got banned from almost every social media platform, including X. Elon Musk eventually reinstated him once he bought X, where he now is, but the only platform where he could be was Telegram. Now, he's on Rumble because Rumble is a genuine free speech platform. He has a show on Rumble that he does, I think, every night or four nights a week, and has found a good-sized audience. But really, it was on Twitter that he got his most attention, and that's why they banned him from Twitter in the pre-Musk era. But it wasn't just that. 

He wasn't just silenced and banned throughout all social media; he was also debanked. He had bank accounts closed, because of his political views, by major banks in the United States. He would get rejected for banking applications. He was put on a No-Fly list, which is the first time I really spoke about Nick, when I raised serious concerns about No-Fly lists being used in this way. His career has been severely impeded, not from what people believe are his racist views about Black people or immigrants; tons of people have those views and are perfectly welcome and fine in right-wing circles. The sole cause of it was his opposition to Israel and his questioning of the power of the Jewish lobby to keep the United States subservient to Israel. It just wasn't said. It was just a taboo. It was one of the third rails of American political discourse that would get anybody fired or destroyed for talking about it. 

Now, a lot of people talk about it, and it's become almost mainstream, but back then, especially on the right, almost nobody did. He paid a huge price, personally, financially, for his career, for his reputation, for his friendships, for his ability to get bank accounts. The government even put him on a no-fly list. And then last year, let's not forget, a homicidal maniac came to his house to try to murder him; shot two of his neighbors and killed them, and showed up at his house with a very large automatic weapon. This person eventually ended up being killed by the police. Another woman showed up at his house, a crazy liberal woman whom he had to pepper-spray. So, he's paid a big price for this. 

I don't want to speak for him, but I definitely identify with this mindset. I've had it too, sometimes, which is that if you are the first person or one of the first people to kind of get out on that plank and you're taking the shots because of it and very few other people are willing to join you,  and then at some point, it becomes a little safer to do it – I'm not saying it's safe; Tucker has also paid a price for it. I mean, half his audience has turned on him. He's now widely attacked by conservatives as being an anti-Semite, a Qatari agent, and Candace as well. So, it's not cost-free at all and Tucker didn't have to do it. He could have just ignored it. So, he's paid for a place too. 

But there's a big difference between Tucker Carlson in his mid-50s with a gigantic multimillion-dollar-year contract with Fox News, coming from the family that he came from, versus Nick Fuentes as a 22-year-old enduring all of that, and he comes from no wealth, no privilege. I think the idea is Nick feels like he was out on that plank, taking all these arrows and punishments, and then, in part, I do think that he helped open the space on the right to start talking more about Israel in a more honest way. It is true that Tucker and Candace, for the most part, hadn't really ever talked about it until after October 7, when, as Nick says, it almost became inevitable. They could have both ignored it. They could've both just spouted a few light lip services to it, but both of them made it very central to their cause, which they didn't have to do. It was not in their interest to do as well. But they did do it. 

But I think he feels like, I'm the one who actually paid the price for this. I was the one who was doing this earlier. Then the two of you come and now start doing it when it's a little bit safer, and also you're more protected because of your platform and standing in wealth, and you want to basically throw me in the garbage and declare me off limits, like, be the gatekeeper that says, you can go up to this point where Tucker and Candace are, but you can't go to Nick Fuentes; he's way too hateful or radical or dangerous or whatever. He feels like they're very late to the game, that he was braver, that he paid a bigger price and then they came along at an easier time and decided that they were the outer limits of where you can go on these discussions about Israel and the like. I'm not saying that's what I think, I'm saying that's what he thinks. I identify with that view. 

I think he would be fine if they would get there and say Nick Fuentes is one of the first people doing this, let's welcome him on our show. But the fact that he's still excluded, to the fact that they called him gay, loser, basically, in his parents' basement, implied that he was working for the CIA or was an agent, probably of Qatar, to destroy the right. I think that's what made him start being resentful, and also, there is this class issue here, which is very real. It's not his fault; Tucker's mother left them when he was very young. Then his father married an heiress from the Swanson fortune. And although she wasn't his mother. It was his stepmother. Obviously, he was living with his father and his stepmother, and they had a very good relationship. She was very good to him. And he ended up having all these benefits from a very young age. First, great wealth and privilege, and then some amount of fame, and then more fame, and then more wealth. And that's more or less been his life. 

Candace, I'm not sure about where she came from, what her family situation was, but once she got very big, she became very wealthy, and then she went to work for The Daily Wire, had a very lucrative contract there, and now she's married to, I heard Nick saying he's British royalty. I don't know if he is, maybe he is. I don't know one way or the other, but I know he's extremely wealthy. And I think there's a class issue there, too, which is like, you two purport to be the kind of warriors for this group of which you're not a part, which has kind of disaffected working-class white people. And Nick's saying, “I actually came from there and now suddenly you two, from your great mountain of wealth and privilege and lifelong or at least in Candace's case, years long, financial power and privilege and status and wealth, whatever, are coming in and trying to talk about me like I'm some loser and yeah I'm a loser in the sense that lots of white people have become trampled on by the United States and that is supposed to be what right-wing populism cares about.” 

So, I thought it was very telling. I do think, if I’m totally honest, it's more personal than substantive. I think Nick feels a lot of resentment for how he's been treated. 

I think Candace and Tucker feel resentment that they put a lot on the line to go where they went and one of the people who has a big influential audience, especially among young conservatives, have kind of gone to war with them. So, I think there's a lot of personal animist and personal resentment driving this, but there's also something very substantive here as well, which is about how people who are a little bit further along on the extremist train sometimes get attacked by the people who are less so, where they want to draw a line and kind of cut off the plank and have you fall off, even though you are on the plank first. I think Nick feels like that's being done to him, and I also think that there is a real class conflict that is driving a lot of this which is very much a part of the conservative world. I mean, huge amounts of conservative influencers, conservative pundits, conservative operatives who claim that they're there to speak for the working-class, for disaffected white people in the United States, are hanging out with billionaires every day and being funded by billionaires and meeting with billionaires and getting invites to the White House and to every center of power. And a lot of compromises are required to do that. And Nick's not willing to make them, and a lot of them are, and that is a substantive issue as well. 

Tucker and Candace, I do think, and they don't get very many invites to those circles. Tucker more than Candace. Tucker because he's been around for so long. He's good friends with people in the Trump administration. He campaigned for Trump, Trump likes him, even though Trump repudiated him and insulted him because of his opposition to the war in Iran. But there are a lot of tension points inside the MAGA movement that are very real, even if some of them are personally driven. We're human beings, we all harbor jealousies and vindictive sentiments and resentments. It's a Herculean effort to try to exclude those as much as possible. We all have to try; some of us do better than others. But none of us is immune from that. So, I'm not suggesting that it's a huge character flaw. I'm just saying I do think that's part of it. But I also think, at least as big of a part, if not bigger, are some of these ideological and class issues who's sort of keeping one foot in decent society and who's willing to say fully what they think without it. And the last thing I'll say is, and this is sort of what I began by saying, which is you can like somebody or not, but it doesn't mean you should lie about their skills or their successes. 

Nick Fuentes, I had a big online following for a few years, but it was very much a kind of online following that was almost like a cult following. It was like a very idiosyncratic group of people. They called themselves the Gropers. They didn't have a lot of cachet or influence outside of their circles, in part because Nick Fuentes wasn't invited anywhere into those more mainstream circles, or even less mainstream far-right circles. He kind of built his entire world himself. 

There are tons of successful podcasters and influencers who really don't have an original thought. They know what they have to get up and say to validate their audience, to show their loyalty to a particular circle. They may even have some talent in terms of rhetoric and communication, some charisma, but they're not very critically minded. They don't do a lot of reading. I can't tell you how often I listen to some of the podcasters of the biggest audience, and you're just like: How are you so ignorant? How do you think about these things? Do you ever stop and breathe and reflect, or read anything? Like read anything substantive in or bound like a Wikipedia page? So, there's a lot of that. 

But go listen to Nick Fuentes, if you haven't. And if you have preconceptions about what he is, I'm not saying that he doesn't say things that are provocative and deliberately cross lines on purpose sometimes, when he doesn't need to, just to cross them. Though I do think it's often purposeful, it's not just about a teenage transgressive instinct. 

So, there are definitely things he said that are offensive. Genuinely so, and not offensive in that, oh my god, you've offended me. But things that I think he would even acknowledge, he often says he doesn't really mean it, he is prone to rhetorical excess, and it's part of the whole presence. But everything that he talks about, he is extremely knowledgeable about and well-versed in. 

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Next question is from @edonk77, who says this:

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All right, the quick Ted Kaczynski story just for anyone who doesn't know it: out of nowhere in the ‘90s, in the Clinton administration, bombs started being sent to mailboxes. They were pretty sophisticated bombs, and they injured and even killed people. It was taking place across the country, and the FBI, the Attorney General, who at the time was Janet Reno, had no idea who was doing it. 

The person who was doing it wrote a letter, believed by the New York Times and the Washington Post, saying, “I will stop if you publish my essay about my ideas and what's motivating me.” And obviously, the instinct of the government is to say, “We’re not going to give in to your terrorist tactics,” which in classic terrorism is kind of what it was: it was violence directed at civilians to induce political and social change.  But it got to the point where the Justice Department was so desperate, they didn't have a first clue about who was doing that. It was like really the perfect crime. They agreed.

So, the Washington Post, maybe the New York Times, too, published this essay by Ted Kaczynski. The reason the Justice Department was willing to do it, aside from the fact that they thought it would help identify who it was, was because they thought what he had written was kind of just such lunacy, madness, that nobody would really read it and even think it deserved attention. And also, they were obviously made it known that the person who wrote that was the person who was sending these violent acts, the terrorist bombs, killing civilians or injuring civilians. They just assumed the hatred for him would overwhelm any interest in what he had to say. 

On one of those bets, they actually turned out to be right, because publishing this essay caused, eventually, Ted Kaczynski's brother, to come forward and say, “I think this is my brother. His writing seems familiar. His ideas are familiar.” That's how they were able to eventually track Ted Kaczynski down. 

Ted Kaczynski was a prodigy, recognized by everybody, as being brilliant – graduated high school at the age of 15, went to Harvard, completed a degree in mathematics. He then went to a PhD program, I think at the University of Chicago, at a top school, and then ended up teaching at Berkeley. And he was on the path of being the youngest ever tenured professor. He was a genuinely brilliant person, not brilliant in the sense that David Frum or Ann Abelbaum gets called brilliant, but genuinely brilliant. 

But what they were very wrong about was the fact that nobody would have any interest in his essay, that nobody would connect to any of his ideas, and that the hatred for Ted Kaczynski, even if people were willing to be open-minded, would make people refuse to read a terrorist essay and take it seriously. At first, that was true, but over time, people started turning to it and saying, “You know what? This seems quite important. There are a lot of ideas here that are very, very relevant and seem prophetic and explain a lot of what previously had been inexplicable.” 

I can't do a good job paraphrasing or summarizing the essay. It's very complex. It's highly worth reading. You can find it free online. It ended up being published in a longer-form, book format. You can read the essay in its long form or the book. But the basic theme of it was that technology was destroying humanity and the ability for human beings to live happy and fulfilled lives. And he traced it back to the Industrial Revolution, but then, how technology has advanced more and more. Before the Industrial Revolution, people were living in small towns, in villages, in nature like they had always lived on farms, had churches, had communities. They were very closely connected to their neighbors, to their extended family and they were living as human beings had lived for thousands of years. We're political and social animals. We need a connection. Without connection, human beings are going to go crazy. 

Eventually, we got to the point Charles Dickens was talking about: the hideous realities of living in gigantic cities as factory workers, completely exploited, working extremely long days for little pay. It is breaking people physically, spiritually, psychologically and emotionally, and that is definitely one of the costs, as we've even gone further down this road. 

And I think it's what Ted Kaczynski predicted, which is that the more technologically we come, the less human, the less fulfilled our natural human needs are. What it means to be human will be consumed by technology and turned into even more exploited tools and objects that barely look at us as humans, arranging our lives so that everything that gives us pleasure and is necessary for happiness is taken away. 

And just quickly on this, there's a Netflix documentary, I've mentioned this before, called “Happiness,” which is a documentary designed to ask, what is human happiness? How do humans acquire happiness? What is necessary and what isn't? And what they found is that a lot of what data reflects is that in many societies where people are economically deprived and without a lot of technology, they're much happier than in much wealthier Western countries. 

This documentary makes a very good case using science, not just pop psychology, about why, oftentimes, technological expansion and wealth expansion undermine human happiness. Ted Kaczynski also warned that, as technology evolved further and further, our societies are less humane, less fulfilling and less connected. And clearly, all of that is true. That is exactly what has happened. I'm not saying we need to dismantle it, but he actually lived those words, he dropped out of the whole matrix basically, when he was, I think 24, left his job as a faculty member and just went into the woods, lived a self-sufficient life off the grid, read, wrote, and did not much else other than working on his writing and his development and thoughts. The more he did that, the more he became convinced that being in the middle of this matrix was uniquely devastating to the ability of humans to be free and happy. 

Of course, that started resonating in America and in Europe and throughout the Western world as people became less and less happy. All the things he was describing as to why, and the role technology plays in that, would obviously exacerbate all that. Remember, this was 1995. I mean, the internet was just starting, but it was nowhere near as dominant in our lives. 

Obviously, with the internet, we often talk to people on phones or on screens. We have our phones everywhere. So, a lot of the human connection and interactivity you once had just walking on the street is now taken away from you because everybody's staring at their phones. You go to restaurants, any restaurant anywhere in the Western world, and you have people who are related, people who are friends, who talk a little, and they both pull out their phones. And before you know it, they're both staring at their phones, and especially with COVID, which forcibly segregated everybody and kept everybody at home, where people even developed a greater dependence on the internet to do everything, including interacting with other humans, this isolation has become far worse and all of the predictable pathologies that come with it that he predicted are also worsening very rapidly, in a very dangerous way. 

I mean, to me, this is the West's greatest problem: spiritual decay that comes from lack of connection. Obviously, there are benefits to technology. We have cures to diseases that we would otherwise die from. The internet makes the world easier, gives you access to things, including reading and information that you otherwise, etc. etc. There are a lot of benefits. But for me, one of the things I think I've learned is that the only real law of the universe is balance, by which I mean for everything that you drive a benefit, there's an equal cost, at least, that offsets it and keeps it in balance. Whatever: fame, wealth, career, success, it all comes with a cost. I definitely think that's the case of technology, and Ted Kaczynski was one of the first people to lay out this case in the way he laid it out. So even though he was a terrorist, even though he killed people, a lot of people began to think, you know what? I think there's a lot of validity here. 

You might ask why he goes to the scene to kill people? He had an academic pedigree. He probably could have gotten this published. I don't really know. I haven't paid much attention lately to this whole episode, so I forgot what the rationale was for that. But in any event, maybe he was also a little imbalanced himself. That probably was true. But, sometimes, being mentally imbalanced or at least mentally alienated, in a way, is necessary to produce insights. Even going back to that last question we talked about, you remove yourself from a certain society or a sector of society, it gives you a much greater clarity of thought because you're no longer connected to it or in it, and you can see it much clearly. I'm sure that's what happens if you just remove yourself completely. 

One of the things the question asked about is left-wing politics. And the person who just asked this question, I'm on the political left, but a lot of his critiques of what left-wings politics is about and the flaws in it, I must admit have validity. And basically, what Ted Kaczynski's warning was, and this definitely proved prophetic, was that the idea would be to make this system of technology and the capitalism that emerged from it invulnerable, so nobody blamed it, nobody wants to undermine it, nobody wants to subvert it, no matter what it's doing to us we're all propagandized to revere it to believe it's all good to believe it's invulnerable, to believe that we benefit from it. And he said one of the ways that that's going to succeed is that people are going to be given kind of culture war fights or social justice causes, which are going to make them feel like they're doing something subversive or radical, when in reality nothing that they're doing is a threat remotely to any real power center.

 Compact Magazine, which is I think a really interesting magazine, it kind of explores the intersection between left and right populism had an article on June 16, 2023, which I really recommend. The headline of it was: “Ted Kaczynski Anti-Left Leftist.” 

Obviously, this vision he's presenting in some ways is left-wing. It's a denunciation of capitalism and its excesses, the Industrial Revolution, and technology, that has a left-wing ethos for sure, but he was also scornful of modern-day, leftist political expression. 

A week or two ago, Ryan Grim as on our show and we were talking about the kind of fraudulent branding of Bari Weiss and The Free Press. There was supposedly a heterodox and dissident when, in reality, it really grew from objecting to a lot of the excesses of the woke movement. And Ryan basically said, if you're talking about kids with blue hair or whatever color hair someone has, or if they're trans or not or whatever, you're not talking about anything that is about the real structure and dissemination of power. It's like catnip. They're happy to have you fight about racism, feminism, yeah, they love racism. They love feminism. Remember the CIA did that whole video, super woke video? They centered like a, what was she? She was, I think, a non-binary Latina who had neurodivergence. And she was just like, “I stand proud and tall and occupy space unapologetically” as a Latino non-binary immigrant, whatever. They're so happy to have that. “Hey, look at our Black generals. We're going to celebrate our Black military officials. We're the Pentagon. Hey, with the FBI, look at all our cool badass women agents or fighter pilots. Look, they're women now.” It's like, “Oh, wow, that's so awesome. We've done so much to change society.” It's that famous cartoon where a Muslim family in Yemen are looking up at the sky and kind of smiling and saying, “I hear the neck bomb is going to be sent, is going to be dropped by a woman pilot.” 

It's just like, here's Hillary Clinton. She's so radical and such a wild departure from everything before, because she's going to be the first female president when there's like nobody more representative of status quo politics than she. So, you vote for her. You feel like you're doing something really like a big blow against the power center and the patriarchy, because now there's a woman and you put her in office and she's going to be the best possible protector of status-quo prerogatives and power centers everywhere, because she presents this illusion that you've done something historic or subversive, when in reality you're just working as hard as you can to entrench the status quo that you think you're working against. 

Ted Kaczynski was incredibly prescient about that as well. There's a lot more to him than what I've gone over. There's a lot to the essay. I just can't do that justice in the time we have, even though I took another hour. 

I did want to give my thoughts on it, but I also highly encourage you to go find the essay, even just start with the essay and I think you'll be amazed if you just sit down and read it, forget about he's the Unabomber, all that. Just read it, and remember it was written in the early to mid-1990s, and so even if some of it seems more familiar now, at the time it was very prescient, but also the way he described it, the historical framework he employed to shed light on how it works, that it's not just some brand new thing, it's gone back, basically traced it back to the Industrial Revolution. There are not very many better ways to spend your time in terms of your brain and your critical thinking, then to go read that essay. 

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All right, here's a few questions on Gaza. 

First from @CatRika:

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@Lightwins2028:

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It actually is incredible that I come here and sit here every night and do this show more or less every night 500 times. I will accept that as well and agree that it is kind of incredible.

And then from @johnmccray:

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I will confess that what we've seen in Gaza over the last 20 months is not just some horrific tragedy or even war on the other side of the world; it is a genocide that involves some of the most twisted cruelty and sadism I have ever witnessed in my life –  obviously, I wasn't alive in World War II, which is why I say ‘in my lifetime.’ However, when you announce that you're blocking all food from entering an enclave that you fully surround and control – and yes, there's a small border with Egypt and Gaza, but the Israeli military is on the other side of that, controlling egress and ingress into it and out of it (besides, the Egyptian dictator is U.S. supported and always has been for decades because he's there to take marching orders from the U.S. regarding Israel).

When you take this concentrated open-air prison enclave, where people can't leave, can't come in, you ban the media from coming in, and you announce to the world you're putting a blockade on any food from entering it, and you knowingly starve them to death, you knowingly blockade food from entering on top of what they're already experiencing – endless bombing, people burning alive in their churches, in their tents, every hospital, every school, all of civilian life being destroyed… The doctors who are there don't have basic medicines. They don't have antibiotics, they don't have feeding formula for babies, they don't have painkillers or anesthesia for the children who come in with their limbs blown off – just the absolute, worst nightmares that human beings could possibly endure for a sustained period, and on top of that, you start starving them to death and then, instead of letting food distribution in from the actual organizations that are experienced in it and actually want to feed the people, you create some new entity that you control – American military contractors that are, for profit, doing the bidding of the IDF, purposely set up so that it barely gives out any food and then it's a death trap – so, you lure starving people in there and you murder them and massacre them regularly, daily… That is a new kind of evil. 

When you’re starving people to death and then saying, “Hey, here are some grains of flour, come here and get them,” and murdering them when they do, when you purposely set up the centers so they barely stay open for more than 15 minutes. People get noticed right before, and they have to trek miles, very dangerously, to get there. They're not allowed to stay there, waiting for the next time to open. They have to go back, and they're killed on the way there. So, they're faced with this Sophie's choice of either having to stay at home and watch their kids starve to death or knowing they risk their lives and their teenage son's lives to go there and try to get food, knowing that a lot of them are going to be murdered, that is a sick new kind of evil. 

And because of how ubiquitous cell phones are, we have to watch it, and we know it's been streamed live every day, throughout the world. We've all seen just the absolute most sickening, hideous human suffering imaginable, a level of sadism that's almost hard to fathom that people are capable of. And while some Israelis are protesting some more now about the end of this war, for the most part, the view of the Israelis has been, I don't care how many civilians we kill, I don't care how many babies are killed. The babies are terrorists. They'll grow up to be Hamas, so I don't care to kill them. 

These are evils that are difficult to endure, even if your work is journalism, even if you look at some of the most horrible things people are doing, you still have to report on them. Even for that, I mean, it's hard to fathom and express, and I know so many people, and I just thought about myself including in this, that you feel so impotent, so your rage is so purposeless, even though it's all-consuming, because the Trump administration doesn't care. It's filled with Israel fanatics, and it's going to support Israel until the very last Gazan is killed. Can you give them all the weapons, all the money, all the diplomatic cover? 

And then of course, the Israelis themselves are so deranged and fanatical that they don't care either. And short of having the world go in and militarily intervene against Israel or arming Hamas, which is not going to happen, there's not a lot you can do. There definitely has been serious measurable changes for the better in how Americans now look at Israel and look at the Israeli action in Gaza, how they look at American funding of Israel. That's not going away. That's a big, big problem for Israel. 

Once you open your eyes to that, you can't unsee it. And you have a lot of people, as we talked about in that first question, fueling it constantly. I hope I'm one of them. I certainly do what I can to do that. But that doesn't mean that any of that is going to stop this war. 

Even in Europe, and I really despise the Western European political elite and media class, they're utterly supportive of Israel. They are loyal to Israel, they arm Israel, fund them, not as much as the United States, but to a great degree. A lot of those historical reasons, guilt over World War II, which Israel expertly exploits – not that it's difficult to exploit the guilt and psychological fragility of Western Europeans, but they do a great job of it. 

So, you're starting to see things like Macron comes out and recognize a Palestinian state, not unimportant, but still a symbolic step. Keir Starmer, he's probably the most despicable politician from a character perspective, an utterly empty, vapid belief-free politician – he's despised in his own country, despised. – He didn't even go that far. He said, “We are going to recognize a Palestinian state unless Israel starts letting food in.” So, Palestinian statehood is not something they're entitled to. It's like a threat that you make to Israel that you're going to give them if the Israelis don't let food in. You see the Germans, who are always the worst for obvious psychological and historical reasons when it comes to standing up to Israel, sort of saying now, “We're going to cut off arms.” 

We'll see how long any of that lasts. The one group of people you do not want to put your faith and trust in to stand for a cause, to hold firm on beliefs, or convictions and values is Western European political elites. They're pathetic. Pathetic. Obviously, there are some exceptions, but as a class, they're nauseating and pathetic. 

I used to think the British elite class was the worst elite class on the planet. While I still think they are definitely in the running, I'm starting to actually think the Germans are more psychologically warped and sickening. I mean, the Germans were also fanatics about the war in Ukraine – fanatics. You put Germans in power, and they don't think about anything other than going to war with Russia. It's really a bizarre repetitive pattern. 

So, I don't want to pretend that there's some quick solution. I do give as much money as I can to them, you can find Palestinian aid and Gaza aid organizations. There's no shortage of verified GoFundMe accounts from people in Gaza telling their stories. And obviously you have to be a little careful not to give to fraudulent ones, but there are easy ways to verify those. Look for trustworthy people on Twitter who vouch for them, things like that. You can donate to that. Even like $50 at a time, whatever you're capable of, $10, $15. Everything is so high-priced in Gaza that sometimes even if they have food available, they can’t afford it. And I think it's also a good way of showing the people in Gaza that the world actually cares about their plight. 

Earlier today, I talked about how Marjorie Taylor Greene has become very outspoken about refusing to serve the agenda of AIPAC and that AIPAC is now on the march against her. They're going to do what they've done to all sorts of politicians which they are now doing to Thomas Massie as well: try to find some fraudulent, politician who lives in their district, who seems demographically appealing to that district, who has the same politics, except they're going to know that AIPAC paid for their political career, paid for the seat in Congress, and they're going to be supremely loyal. 

One of the worst examples – I mean, I can barely look at this person because of how pathetic and sad it is to watch him. They wanted to get Cori Bush out of Congress. If you're conservative and you dislike Cori Bush, AIPAC doesn't dislike her for any of the reasons that you dislike her. They only care about the fact that she's raised questions like, “Why are we sending so much money to Israel when my whole district is filled with people financially struggling, who don't have healthcare, don't have access to education, have no public safety?” Why are we giving all this money to Israel? Why is AIPAC forcing us to do that?” And they were so determined to take Cori Bush out because of her Israel questioning that they found some utterly craven Black politician, nice liberal, nice Democrat, of course. You have to get a liberal, you have to be a Democrat, and probably have to be a Black politician. His name is Wesley Bell, and they paid $15 million – 15,000 million –for one Democratic primary seat in Congress in St. Louis, to replace Cori Bush with somebody exactly like her, except that he's an AIPAC loyalist. And you can just see him on social media and in speeches, standing up for Israel. You know exactly why $15 million was his price tag, and he knows if he wants to keep that seat, he's going to need AIPAC doing the same. And they're going to try to do the same with Thomas Massie. They're going to try to do the same with Marjorie Taylor Greene. 

They're not always successful. They've tried it many times with Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, even, to a smaller extent, AOC. They made some inroads, but for the most part, Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar are too popular in their Democratic primaries and their Democratic constituencies for that to work. 

In 2022, Ilhan Omar almost lost the Democratic primary. I think she won by a few points. So, she's not invulnerable. They never quite spent the money on her that they spent on people like Cori Bush or Jamaal Bowman. But they have a long history of doing this. And they're clearly doing it to Thomas Massie. If you look at the three top billionaires donating to AIPAC to remove Thomas Massie, they're all Jewish billionaires who are extremely loyal to Israel. 

That's the whole point of this effort that Donald Trump supports. One thing you can do is just look at who AIPAC is trying to remove from Congress and just donate to whoever they want to take out of Congress as a way to thwart them because even if you're a conservative and you see them doing it to some left-wing member of Congress that you don't like, it's not like the person they're going to replace that person with is going to be any more appealing to you. There's no difference, except that that person is going to be bought and paid to be an AIPAC agent, who is going to be devoted to Israel and never question Israel. That's the only difference. 

AIPAC's not taking Cori Bush out of Congress or Jamaal Bowman because they're too left-wing. The only thing they care about is if the person is devoted to Israel. The same with Tom Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene. If they're going to take out members of Congress as punishment for not being loyal enough to Israel, donate to the people they're trying to remove on both sides. If you're on the left, you're not going to agree with Marjorie Taylor Greene or Thomas Massie, obviously. But the people who are going to come in their place are not going to agree with you politically anymore. The only difference will be that those people will be fanatical Israel supporters, like many in the Republican Party, instead of being among the few to question them. So, that is another way I think you could work. 

I know this is thankless work. There's no immediate gratification, but it does work. Public opinion changes. It really does. And especially with independent media with a free internet, with the deconcentrating of power over the discourse no longer in the hands of a few tiny number of gigantic media corporations controlled by people who are all the same basic political outlook, with the same interests, but now huge gigantic people with big audiences who influence a lot of people completely removed from those circles and that dogma. That is also a big reason for optimism. And if you see the polling change in a pretty substantial way as you do on the Israel question and the Gaza question, keep contributing to that. You don't have to have a gigantic platform. 

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Last question, this is from @coldhotdog:

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All right. The U.S. is sanctioning Brazil, Brazilian officials, and also imposing tariffs on them, not for the reason that Trump has been imposing tariffs on other countries, mainly because he thinks there's unfair trading practices causing a trade deficit. The opposite is true. The United States has a significant trade surplus with Brazil. There's not a trade deficit. So, the tariffs are more – and it was kind of explicit – used as punishment against Brazil for their violation of free speech, their violation to due process, their persecution of political opponents. And obviously, that is not the U.S.'s real goal. 

I wrote an article about this in Folha, where I do reporting, and I'm a columnist in Brazil. And it basically said, Okay, I hope no one takes seriously when the U.S. government says we're upset about the infringements on free speech or the erosions of democracy. It was like a month before Trump announced sanctions on Brazil and tariffs on Brazil, that he went to the Persian Gulf region and heaped praise on Mohammed bin Salman and the leaders of Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, heralded them, hugged them, and not for the first time. While I think Brazil is very repressive and I think Moraes is an absolute tyrant, it's in a completely different universe than what happens in Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Qatar. It's not even close. 

So, any country that's heaping praise on and embracing, hugging and propping up the governments of Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Qatar, or the Egyptians, or the Jordanians, of the Bahrainis or whomever, the Philippines, Indonesia, obviously, is not a country that cares about repression inside other countries. Obviously.

The United States doesn't go around the world fighting wars or intervening in other countries because they care about repression. That's the pretext. They love dictators as long as dictators are pro-American. They only have a problem with dictatorial regimes if they defy America, like Cuba or Venezuela, Iran, Russia, China, and then you hear “Oh my god, we're the United States, we go and fight for democracies. That is why we have to protect Ukraine.” Even though, arguably, Ukraine has become as repressive as Russia. So, whatever drives the United States, it's not a love for democracy, it is not a contempt for an erosion of liberty, it is not a defense of free speech, obviously, I hope there's no one in my audience who believes that. So, when Trump says, “Oh, we're punishing Brazil because it's become repressive, it’s attacked the free speech,” it's obviously not the reason. 

Then the question that our Locals member is raising, which is a good one.

I don't support the U.S. embargo of Cuba which is now 65 years old. The idea of that was that we're going to change the government of Cuba and free the Cuban people. Obviously, it has not done that. The only thing it's done is make life in Cuba utterly miserable for the population. Same with Venezuela. Same with the sanctions on Iran. So, I don't think that's the role of the United States to go try to change other governments, even if they're pretending, they're changing them out of concern about their oppression when obviously that's not the real reason. 

The reason is they want to replace it with a regime that's more compliant to the United States. And obviously I don't think Trump is intervening in Brazil with punishments and the like because he's concerned in the abstract about free speech. I mean, aside from all the dictatorial regimes we embrace, there's also the attacks on free speech in the United States, which we've gone over many times, including last night, that the Trump administration is spearheading, that the Biden administration before that spearheaded. 

So, the question then becomes, well, what is the real reason? And I want to say, while I view Alexandre de Moraes as a serious menace, as one of the most tyrannically minded people on the planet, even if he's not, say, as powerful or dictatorial as Mohammed bin Salman, just because Brazil is not that kind of society that permits that level of overt, absolute, autocratic tyranny, the way a lot of other countries do that we support prop up, I do think he's a genuine evil figure. Obviously, one of the reasons I talk about it is because I live here. My family is Brazilian. My kids are Brazilian. So, it's something I care about for that reason. And of course, I think the reason why Trump is doing it is because it's not actually a left-wing government in Brazil. Lula is the president. And he was a leftist in his earlier life. He was a labor leader, but he ran for president three times as a leftist, lost. And then finally, in 2002, he was sick of losing. And he wrote this famous letter called Letter to the Brazilian People, where he basically said, “I understand that if I want to be president, I have to moderate. I have to get along with financial centers. This is important for prosperity.” He basically promised not to be a fallaway left-wing dogma to be much more moderate. And then to prove it, he chose a billionaire banker as his vice president, to make clear to financial markets, banks, big corporations inside Brazil that he wasn't going to be a threat. 

They're not leftist at all. But I'm sure in Trump's mind, in the eyes of Marco Rubio, the people who are influencing Trump, he sees a little like basically a communist regime, like a left-wing regime, like from the Cold War, even though it's not remotely that. And I'm not suggesting they're conservative or right-wing. They're not. But they're not communists or even socialists. And part of what Trump's doing is he just looks at Lula and the Brazilian government as an enemy and is convinced, okay, they're our enemy. Let's punish them. If I had to find a justification – I'm not saying I support it, I'm not saying I justify it – but if I had to find a justification, I would say that the real only justification for any of this is the fact that Moraes and the Supreme Court have been now targeting not just America's social media companies. 

So, this is reaching into the United States threatening the free speech rights of American citizens or people legally residing in the United States, attacking and threatening and trying to bully American social media companies. And that is, I believe, an invasion of American sovereignty and an attack on the rights of American citizens. I do think the government, the U.S. government, is duty-bound to draw a very firm line and say, “No, you're not going to cross that line. And if you cross that, we're going to take action against you.” That's the only justification I can think of. 

So, I'm not defending the Magnitsky Act sanctions against Moraes, or even the punitive tariffs against Brazil. I've basically been arguing that if there's anyone who truly is tyrannical in his mindset, who's just absolutely, like, mentally unstable and just an authoritarian tyrant with no limits at all, who's been just vindictive and drunk on his power, it is Alexandre de Moraes. And I do think there's this one justification for the U.S. to cite, to justify taking retaliatory and retributive action against Brazil. 

Obviously, Trump likes Bolsonaro. He strongly identifies with any claims that a politician is being victimized by politicized lawfare because Trump believes as do I, that he himself was the victim of that and he sees when he looks at Bolsonaro a very similar thing happening to Bolsonaro, and I think he feels personally angry by that. So, I think there's some complex motives as well, but other than what I just articulated, I'm not defending the U.S.’s use of sanctions, the exploitation of the dollars in reserve currency to punish the economies of other countries because we don't like what they're doing internally. It's all obviously a fraud and a pretext to say, we're doing it because we care about free speech or due process or whatever. But I think there is a foundation to it, not a very strong one, but a foundation to it that I do think is legitimate. And you know what? I guess, just looking at it from a less principled perspective, I do think Alexandre de Moraes is a completely out-of-control monster. And everyone in Brazil is too scared to stand up to him or too supportive of the fact that he's imprisoning and exiling and silencing Bolsonaro supporters, that there is nobody in Brazil that's capable of stopping him or willing to do so. And the only thing that has really undermined and disrupted him is what Trump just did and now is threatening to do even more with even more invasive sanctions against his wife, against other officials in Brazil. And that is something they have to take very seriously and are taking very seriously. And it's the first time there's been real limits put on it. 

So, from a very kind of instrumentalized, results-based perspective, I confess that I'm happy about where that is leading, even if I do have genuine, really real concerns about the use of American arms and weaponry to do this.

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