Glenn Greenwald
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EXCLUSIVE: Prof. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza's Future, the Cease-Fire Deal & Fallout from the U.S./Israeli War
System Update #407
February 18, 2025
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Professor Norman Finkelstein is a good friend of the show. He's appeared here many times. He is, without a doubt, one of the most informed scholars on the history of Israel and the Israel-Palestinian conflict. He is, among other things, the author of the 2000 book “The Holocaust Industry,” which describes how Israelis and Zionists exploit the Holocaust as a massive industry in order to exploit the world to get huge amounts of money that end up supporting the Israeli government. 

He's been a vocal critic of the Israeli government before the destruction of Gaza but during the destruction of Gaza has really emerged as a strong, morally clear and highly informed scholar and analyst of this situation. We are always delighted to have him here. He's a guest to whom our audience reacts very positively, as somebody who helps them navigate and understand very complex issues. 

We sat down with him today a little bit ago and we explored a wide range of issues beginning with the cease-fire in Gaza and the Trump administration's policy toward that region and a whole variety of other related issues. Here is our discussion with Professor Finkelstein that we recorded earlier today:

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G. Greenwald: Norman, it's great to see you. Thank you for joining us. We haven't spoken since the imposition of or the agreement to the cease-fire that was agreed to just days before Donald Trump's inauguration on January 20. There have been violations of that cease-fire and there are a lot of imperfections with that cease-fire, but do you think the cease-fire itself is a positive step forward when compared to what came before it? 

Norman Finkelstein: That's a difficult question to answer because there's an immediate effect, which of course is positive. The people of Gaza were celebrating the fact that after 16 months of relentless and historically unprecedented bombing, the genocide in that form had come to an end and it would be verging on satanic on my part to be critical of that development. There was huge human relief at the end of the cessation of the bombing. 

As to where it will lead, I'm a little bit skeptical about the terms of the agreement based on two facts: number one, if you look at the historical precedents all of the terms attached to agreements after Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, after the Mavi Marmara incident on May 31, 2010; after Operation Protective Edge, in 2014, all of the terms, apart from the actual cease-fire, all of the terms to lift the medieval criminal blockade of Gaza, to ease at least the criminal medieval blockade of Gaza, those terms were never honored and it was striking that after Operation Pillar of Defense, in 2012, when Israel had to decide whether to agree to a cease-fire which also included easing the blockade or lifting the blockade – Ehud Barak who was the defense minister at the time he said “Once the cease-fire is agreed to, all the terms are forgotten” and it was on that assumption that Israel agreed to the cease-fire. 

My guess this time around and I don't pretend to have any insider knowledge on the subject, nor have I followed it closely, my guess this time is Donald Trump wants to take credit for having gotten all the hostages released and he can claim that as a huge “diplomatic victory” and so he is waiting for the hostages every last one of them to be released. 

He'll become a hero in Israel, and he will, as I said, be able to claim a major diplomatic victory, but all the rest seems to me completely far-fetched to believe that will be followed through on and that brings me to my second reservation. It strikes me as totally far-fetched that after spending 15, 16 months trying to render Gaza unlivable which was the main goal after October 7, to render it unlivable so that those who weren't killed would be faced with only two options as the senior government official, government advisor Yoav Gallant put it, they'll be left with only two options: to stay and to starve or to leave. 

I find it completely untenable that suddenly the Israeli government is going to do an about-face and say, “All we are saying is give peace a chance.” That doesn't seem to me very plausible and with Donald Trump's announced plan of deporting the entire population – in his view, it will be a willing deportation because of new opportunities he promises to open up to them – but whether it's willing deportation or unwilling deportation, the fact remains deportation is incompatible with humanitarian aid to make life sustainable and it's certainly incompatible with reconstruction – a reconstruction not the turning of Gaza into a Riviera but a reconstruction that enables the population to stay in place. Its humanitarian aid reconstruction is simply incompatible, fundamentally, not just incompatible, in contradiction with Israel's announced goal objective after October 7, to render Gaza unlivable, and it's incompatible with Donald Trump's announced objective of turning Gaza into the Riviera minus its indigenous population. 

So, I believe that once all of the Israeli hostages are returned, Israel will be given a free hand and the prospects of sufficient humanitarian aid and reconstruction which – humanitarian aid was integrated into stage one and stage two and reconstruction in this nebulous stage three, even stage two is nebulous. I can't see that happening. 

G. Greenwald: Yeah. I take your skepticism and not just take it but share it completely. At the same time, I'm wondering whether you know it's certainly true that the Israeli goal from the start was to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza in order to claim it for themselves and, in order to do that, as you also correctly observed, there was a need to make Gaza uninhabitable. If you listen to Trump and everyone around Trump, the premise of everything they're saying is that Gaza is already uninhabitable. Steve Witkoff, his envoy, went to Gaza on a short little excursion into it, protected by the IDF and basically came back and said, “There's nothing there but rubble”. Trump's whole argument for this pipe dream of cleansing Gaza is that there's nothing left of Gaza, there's no civilian infrastructure, and there are basically no buildings left. All of this is true. So, just focused for a moment on the narrow question of whether Israel intends to resume bombing or whether Trump wants the Israelis to resume bombing, why does Israel really need to keep bombing, given that they've essentially turned Gaza into nothing but a pile of rubble?

Norman Finkelstein: I totally agree with that. I would just like to add a couple of relevant observations. Number one: those who are outraged at what Trump has been saying it ought to be born in mind – the perfectly obvious ought to be born in mind – that Trump is ostensibly simply reacting to a situation enabled, created, by the Biden administration. If I understood from day one and I said it from day one that Israel's goal was to render Gaza uninhabitable, certainly, the Biden administration, Mr. Blinken, they were aware of that goal, they green-lighted that goal, and they enabled that goal. So, the situation to which President Trump is speaking was created under Biden's watch. If there were any doubt about what Israel's goal was, all you have to do is read the statements coming out of Israel, at the highest levels to the base of Israeli society, from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum, and in both official institutions and civil society institutions. There was a consensus and here I would want to note that, by now, we have so many compendia of collecting all the genocidal statements that were uttered during the past 15 months. We have in May 29, 2024, South Africa submitted a letter to the Security Council and it was accompanied by 121 pages single space of documentation in its entirety comprising the genocidal statements by Israeli society and I want to emphasize that because sometimes you can say a genocidal policy is a state policy but I do not believe that's an accurate description of what unfolded in Gaza the past 16 months. It was a national project encompassing the whole of Israeli society and so there was simply a kind of explosion of the id, the unconscious, the subconscious whatever departments of the psyche you believe in. There was this explosion of the most horrendous genocidal statements every day, every hour. On every social media option, there was this explosion, so you can't really say that the Israelis didn't know, as the Germans pretended after Hitler's defeat, you can't say they didn't know, and you certainly can’t say the Biden administration didn't know. If I knew, they knew. All you had to do was converse with Israeli officials or read your daily updates provided to senior officials by the CIA and other institutions. All you had to do was read them. 

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Answering Your Questions About Tariffs

Many of you have been asking about the impact of Trump's tariffs, and Glenn addressed how we are covering the issue during our mail bag segment yesterday. As always, we are grateful for your thought-provoking questions! Thank you, and keep the questions coming!

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In Case You Missed It: Glenn Breaks Down Trump's DOJ Speech on Fox News
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Listen to this Article: Reflecting New U.S. Control of TikTok's Censorship, Our Report Criticizing Zelensky Was Deleted

For years, U.S. officials and their media allies accused Russia, China and Iran of tyranny for demanding censorship as a condition for Big Tech access. Now, the U.S. is doing the same to TikTok. Listen below.

Listen to this Article: Reflecting New U.S. Control of TikTok's Censorship, Our Report Criticizing Zelensky Was Deleted
LOCALS MAILBAG: Send in your questions for Glenn!

Any questions that you’ve posted either here today or in our feed across the week are considered!

September 10, 2025

RE: Charlie Kirk ... I appreciated Glenn's comments tonight. It reminded me of the Clint Eastwood quote from Unforgiven: "Its a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away everything he's got and everything he's ever gonna have."
That thing "he's gonna have" might be a change of mind about something you disagreed with him about. I just thought it was important that Glenn emphasized the point that we are all much more than our opinion about any one particular issue and even our opinion on that issue will often change over time.

September 10, 2025

Enjoyed your show on Charlie Kirk, whose death has affected me more than I had anticipated. Probably because he was younger than my own son, and he has two young children (and I was already sad about the Ukrainian lady being stabbed). Anyway, here's an interesting post from a teacher on Substack about Kirk:
https://substack.com/profile/8962438-internalmedicinedoc/note/c-154594339

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Trump and Rubio Apply Panama Regime Change Playbook to Venezuela; Michael Tracey is Kicked-Out of Epstein Press Conference
System Update #508

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

 

 The Trump administration proudly announced yesterday that it blew up a small speedboat out of the water near Venezuela. It claimed that – without presenting even a shred of evidence – that the boat carried 11 members of the Tren de Aragua gang, and that the boat was filled with drugs. Secretary of State Marco Rubio – whose lifelong dream has been engineering coups and regime changes in Latin American countries like Venezuela and Cuba – claimed at first that the boat was headed toward the nearby island nation of Trinidad. But after President Trump claimed that the boat was actually headed to the United States, where it intended to drop all sorts of drugs into the country, Secretary of State Rubio changed his story to align with Trump's and claimed that the boat was, in fact, headed to the United States. 

There are numerous vital issues and questions here. First, have Trump supporters not learned the lesson yet that when the U.S. Government makes assertions and claims to justify its violence, that evidence ought to be required before simply assuming that political leaders are telling the truth. Second, what is the basis, the legal or Constitutional basis, that permits Donald Trump to simply order boats in international waters to be bombed with U.S. helicopters or drones instead of, for example, interdicting the boat, if you believe there are drugs on it, to actually prove that the people are guilty before just evaporating them off the planet? And then third, and perhaps most important: is all of this – as it seems – merely a prelude to yet another U.S. regime change war, this time, one aimed at the government of oil-rich Venezuela? We'll examine all of these events and implications, including the very glaring parallels between what is being done now to what the Bush 41 administration did in 1989 when invading Panama in order to oppose its one-time ally, President Manuel Noriega, based on exactly the same claims the Trump administration is now making about Venezuela. For a political movement that claims to hate Bush/neocon foreign policy, many Trump supporters and Trump officials sure do find ways to support the wars that constitute the essence of this ideology they claim to hate. 

Then, the independent journalist and friend of the show, Michael Tracey, was physically removed from a press conference in Washington D.C. yesterday, one to which he was invited, that was convened by the so-called survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and their lawyer. Michael's apparent crime was that he did what a journalist should be doing. He asked a question that undercut the narrative of the press event and documented the lies of one of the key Epstein accusers, lies that the Epstein accuser herself admits to having told. All of this is part of Michael's now months-long journalistic crusade to debunk large parts of the Epstein melodrama – efforts that include claims he's made, with which I have sometimes disagreed, but it's undeniable that the work he's doing is journalistically valuable in every instance: we always need questioning and critical scrutiny of mob justice or emoting-driven consensus to ask whether there's really evidence to support all of the claims. And that's what Michael has been doing, and he's basically been standing alone while doing it, and he'll be here to discuss yesterday’s expulsion from this press conference as well as the broader implications of the work he's been trying to do. 

 

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Minnesota Shooting Exploited to Impose AI Mass Surveillance; Taylor Lorenz on Dark Money Group Paying Dem Influencers, and the Online Safety Act
System Update #507

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

 

The ramifications of yesterday's Minneapolis school shooting – and the exploitations of it – continue to grow. On last night's program, we reviewed the transparently opportunistic efforts by people across the political spectrum to immediately proclaim that they knew exactly what caused this murderer to shoot people. As it turned out, the murderer was motivated by whatever party or ideology, religion, or social belief that they hate most. Always a huge coincidence and a great gift for those who claim that. 

There's an even more common and actually far more sinister manner of exploiting such shootings: namely, by immediately playing on people's anger and fear to tell them that they must submit to greater and greater forms of mass surveillance and other authoritarian powers to avoid such events in the future. As they did after the 9/11 attack, which ushered in the full-scale online surveillance system under which we all live, Fox News is back to push a comprehensive Israel-developed AI mass surveillance program in the name of stopping violent events in the future. We'll tell you all about it. 

 Then, we have a very special surprise guest for tonight. She is Taylor Lorenz, who reported for years for The New York Times and The Washington Post on internet culture, trends in online discourse, and social media platforms. She's here in part to talk about her new story that appeared in WIRED Magazine today that details a dark money program that secretly shovels money to pro-Democratic Party podcasters and content creators, including ones with large audiences, and yet they are prohibited from disclosing even to their viewership that they're being paid in this way. We'll talk about this program and its implications. And while she's here, we'll also discuss her reporting on, and warnings about new online censorship schemes that masquerade as child protection laws, namely, by requiring users to submit proof of their identity to access various sites, all in the name of protecting children, but in the process destroying the key value of online anonymity. We'll talk to her about several other related issues as well. 


 

There've been a lot of revelations over the last 25 years, since the 9/11 attack, of all sorts of secretive programs that were implemented in the dark that many people I think correctly view as un-American in the sense that they run a foul and constitute a direct assault on the rights, protections and guarantees that we all think define what it means to be an American. And a lot of that happened. In fact, much of it, one could say most of it, happened because of the fears and emotions that were generated quite predictably by the 9/11 attack in 2001 and also the anthrax attack, which followed along just about a month later, six weeks later. We've done an entire show on it because of its importance in escalating the fear level in the United States in the wake of 9/11, even though it's extremely mysterious – the whole thing, how it happened, how it was resolved. But the point is that the fear levels increased, the anger increased, the sadness over the victims increased and into that breach, into that highly emotional state, stepped both the government and their partners in the media, which essentially included all major media outlets at the time, to tell people they essentially have to give up their rights if they want to be safe from future terrorist attacks. 

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Glenn Takes Your Questions on the Minneapolis School Shooting, MTG & Thomas Massie VS AIPAC, and More
System Update #506

The following is an abridged transcript from System Update’s most recent episode. You can watch the full episode on Rumble or listen to it in podcast form on Apple, Spotify, or any other major podcast provider.  

System Update is an independent show free to all viewers and listeners, but that wouldn’t be possible without our loyal supporters. To keep the show free for everyone, please consider joining our Locals, where we host our members-only aftershow, publish exclusive articles, release these transcripts, and so much more!

 

We are going to devote the show tonight to more questions that have come from our Locals members over the week. It continues to be some really interesting ones, raising all sorts of topics. 

We do have a question that we want to begin with that deals with what I think is the at least most discussed and talked about story of the day, if not the most important one, which is the school shooting that took place in a Catholic church in Minneapolis earlier today when a former student who attended that school went to the church, opened fire and shot 19 people, two of whom, young students between eight and ten, were killed. The other 17 were wounded, and amazingly, it’s expected that all of them are to survive. The carnage could have been much worse; the tragedy is manifest, however, and there is a lot of, as always, political commentary surrounding the mass shooting attempts to identify the ideology of the shooter in a way that is designed to promote a lot of people's political agenda. So, let's get to the first question.

 It is from @ZellFive, who's a member of our Locals community. He offers this question, but also a viewpoint that I think really ought to be considered by a lot more people. They write:

 

So, I'm really glad that this is one of the questions that we got today because this is a point I've been arguing for so long. So, let me just try to give you as many facts as I possibly can, facts that seem to be confirmed by law rather than just circulating on the internet. 

So, the suspected killer is somebody named Robin Westman, who is 23 years old. After they shot 19 people inside this church, killing two young children, they then committed suicide with a weapon. The person's birth name is Robert Westman, and around 16 or 17 years old, he decided that he identified as a woman, went to court, changed the legal name from Robert to Robin, and began identifying as a trans woman, so that obviously is going to provoke a lot of commentary, and there's been a lot of commentary provoked around that. We will definitely get to that. 

 

The suspected killer also left a very lengthy manifesto, a written manifesto which they filmed and uploaded on a video to YouTube, along with showing a huge arsenal of guns, including rifles and pistols and some automatic weapons. I believe various automatic rifles as well. I don't think they used any of those weapons at school. I believe they just used a rifle and a pistol, if I'm not mistaken. But we'll see about that. 

It was essentially a manifesto both in written terms, but then they also wrote various slogans on each of these weapons and various parts of the weapons. And we're going to go over a lot of what they put there because there's an obvious and instantaneous attempt, as there always is, to instantly exploit any of these shootings before the corpses are even removed from the ground. And I mean that literally. The effort already begins to inject partisan agenda, partisan ideology, ideological agendas to immediately try to depict the shooter as being representative of whatever faction the person offering this theory most hates or to claim that they're motivated by or an adherent of whatever ideology the person offering the theory most hates. And it happens in every single case. 

Oftentimes, there's an immediate attempt to squeeze some unrelated or perhaps even related agenda in and out of it instantly. Liberals almost always insist that whenever there's a mass shooting, it proves the need for a greater gun control without bothering to demonstrate whether the gun control they favor would have actually stopped the person from acquiring these weapons in the first place, whether they were legally acquired, whether they could have been legally acquired, even with gun control measures, it doesn't matter, instantaneously exploiting the emotions surrounding a shooting like this to try to increase support for gun control. Whereas people on the right often do the opposite. 

On the right, they typically will argue that more guns would have enabled somebody to neutralize the shooter more rapidly, that perhaps churches and schools need greater security. We need more police. So, there's that kind of an almost automatic and reflexive exploitation again, almost before anything is known, but there is an even more pernicious attempt to instantly declare that everyone knows the motives of the shooter, that they know the political outlook and perspective of the shooter. They know their partisan ideology and their ideological beliefs in an attempt to demonize whatever group a person hates most. 

This is unbelievably ignorant, deceitful and ill-advised for so many reasons. The first of which is that every single political action, every single ideological movement, produces evil mass shooters. For every far-leftist mass shooter that you want to show or white supremacist mass shooters that you want to show, you can show people who have murdered in defense of all kinds of causes. And so even if you can pinpoint the ideology of the shooter on the same day the shooting happened, I mean, you can develop a clear, reliable, concise and specific understanding of the shooter that you never even heard of until four hours ago, but you're so insightful, your investigative skills are so profound, that you're able to discern exactly what the motive of this person was in doing something so intrinsically insane and evil as shooting up a church filled with young school children. 

The idea that anyone can do that is preposterous on its face. I mean, the police always say, because they're actual investigators, actual law enforcement officers who want to collect evidence that stands up for public scrutiny and also in court, “We don't know yet what the motive is; we're collecting clues.” But almost nobody on Twitter or social media or in the commentariat is willing to say that. Everybody insists immediately, no, the killer was motivated by the other party, the opposite party of the one I'm a member of, or this ideology that's not mine, or in this religion that is the one I like the most to demonize. It's just so transparent and so blatant what is being done here. And yet it's so prevalent. 

I mean, you could go on to social media and principally the social media platform where the most journalists and political pundits, influencers and the like congregate, which is X, and I could show you probably 40 different theories offered definitively with an authoritative voice. Not like, hey, this might be possibly the case, but saying clearly, we know that the killer was motivated by this particular ideology, this particular set of beliefs. And I'm not talking about random X users, I'm talking about people with significant platforms, people who are well-known. 

I could probably show you 40 different theories like that, where every person is purporting to know definitively exactly what the motive of the shooter was and by huge coincidence they all have latched on to whatever ideology or faction or motive most serves their own political worldview to demonize the people with whom they most disagree, or whatever ideology or group of people they most hate. That's always what is done. And I guess in some cases, if a shooter leaves a particularly clear and coherent manifesto, and we have had those sometimes, we have had Anders Breivik in Norway, who made it very clear that his motive was hatred for Muslim immigrants who shot up a summer camp in Norway. We had the Christchurch, New Zealand killer who attacked two mosques and mass murdered dozens of Muslims at a mosque and made clear he was doing so because it was viewed that Islam is a danger. We had the mass shooter in a Buffalo supermarket, who made manifest their white supremacist views. We've had mass shooters who are motivated by hatred of Christianity, as happened in the Nashville shooter attack on a Christian school there, I mean, I could go on and on. 

As I said, every single political faction produces mass shooters, mass killers, evil, crazy people who use violence indiscriminately against innocents in advance of their beliefs. But most of the time, and you might even be able to say all of the times – I mean, maybe I don't like the phrase all of the times because you can conceive of exceptions, but close to all the time, most of the time, people who go and just randomly shoot at innocent people whom they don't know are above all else driven by mental illness and spiritual decay, not by political ideology or adherence to a political cause. That often is the pretext for what they're doing; that may be how they convince themselves that what they are doing is justified. But far more often than not, the principle overriding factor is the fact that the person is just mentally ill or spiritually broken, by which I mean just a completely nihilistic person who has given up on life and wants to just inflict suffering on other people because of the suffering that they feel or their suffering from delusions. 

And this isn't something I invented today. This is something I've long been saying. And I just want to make one more point, which is, even though there are sometimes manifestos that are extremely clear and say, “I am murdering people in a supermarket that is African-American because I hate Black people and I don't think they belong in the United States,” or “I believe that white people are the sole proper citizens of the United States and I want to murder and kill inspired by those other mass murderers” that I mentioned, even then, it may not be the case that the person's representation of what they're is the actual motive because it could be driven by a whole variety of other factors, including mental illness, or all kinds of other issues to be able to conclude in six hours, even with a crystal-clear manifesto that the person did it for reasons that you're ready to definitively assert are the reasons is so irresponsible. It's just so intellectually bankrupt. 

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