Professor Norman Finkelstein is a good friend of the show. He's appeared here many times. He is, without a doubt, one of the most informed scholars on the history of Israel and the Israel-Palestinian conflict. He is, among other things, the author of the 2000 book “The Holocaust Industry,” which describes how Israelis and Zionists exploit the Holocaust as a massive industry in order to exploit the world to get huge amounts of money that end up supporting the Israeli government.
He's been a vocal critic of the Israeli government before the destruction of Gaza but during the destruction of Gaza has really emerged as a strong, morally clear and highly informed scholar and analyst of this situation. We are always delighted to have him here. He's a guest to whom our audience reacts very positively, as somebody who helps them navigate and understand very complex issues.
We sat down with him today a little bit ago and we explored a wide range of issues beginning with the cease-fire in Gaza and the Trump administration's policy toward that region and a whole variety of other related issues. Here is our discussion with Professor Finkelstein that we recorded earlier today:
G. Greenwald: Norman, it's great to see you. Thank you for joining us. We haven't spoken since the imposition of or the agreement to the cease-fire that was agreed to just days before Donald Trump's inauguration on January 20. There have been violations of that cease-fire and there are a lot of imperfections with that cease-fire, but do you think the cease-fire itself is a positive step forward when compared to what came before it?
Norman Finkelstein: That's a difficult question to answer because there's an immediate effect, which of course is positive. The people of Gaza were celebrating the fact that after 16 months of relentless and historically unprecedented bombing, the genocide in that form had come to an end and it would be verging on satanic on my part to be critical of that development. There was huge human relief at the end of the cessation of the bombing.
As to where it will lead, I'm a little bit skeptical about the terms of the agreement based on two facts: number one, if you look at the historical precedents all of the terms attached to agreements after Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, after the Mavi Marmara incident on May 31, 2010; after Operation Protective Edge, in 2014, all of the terms, apart from the actual cease-fire, all of the terms to lift the medieval criminal blockade of Gaza, to ease at least the criminal medieval blockade of Gaza, those terms were never honored and it was striking that after Operation Pillar of Defense, in 2012, when Israel had to decide whether to agree to a cease-fire which also included easing the blockade or lifting the blockade – Ehud Barak who was the defense minister at the time he said “Once the cease-fire is agreed to, all the terms are forgotten” and it was on that assumption that Israel agreed to the cease-fire.
My guess this time around and I don't pretend to have any insider knowledge on the subject, nor have I followed it closely, my guess this time is Donald Trump wants to take credit for having gotten all the hostages released and he can claim that as a huge “diplomatic victory” and so he is waiting for the hostages every last one of them to be released.
He'll become a hero in Israel, and he will, as I said, be able to claim a major diplomatic victory, but all the rest seems to me completely far-fetched to believe that will be followed through on and that brings me to my second reservation. It strikes me as totally far-fetched that after spending 15, 16 months trying to render Gaza unlivable which was the main goal after October 7, to render it unlivable so that those who weren't killed would be faced with only two options as the senior government official, government advisor Yoav Gallant put it, they'll be left with only two options: to stay and to starve or to leave.
I find it completely untenable that suddenly the Israeli government is going to do an about-face and say, “All we are saying is give peace a chance.” That doesn't seem to me very plausible and with Donald Trump's announced plan of deporting the entire population – in his view, it will be a willing deportation because of new opportunities he promises to open up to them – but whether it's willing deportation or unwilling deportation, the fact remains deportation is incompatible with humanitarian aid to make life sustainable and it's certainly incompatible with reconstruction – a reconstruction not the turning of Gaza into a Riviera but a reconstruction that enables the population to stay in place. Its humanitarian aid reconstruction is simply incompatible, fundamentally, not just incompatible, in contradiction with Israel's announced goal objective after October 7, to render Gaza unlivable, and it's incompatible with Donald Trump's announced objective of turning Gaza into the Riviera minus its indigenous population.
So, I believe that once all of the Israeli hostages are returned, Israel will be given a free hand and the prospects of sufficient humanitarian aid and reconstruction which – humanitarian aid was integrated into stage one and stage two and reconstruction in this nebulous stage three, even stage two is nebulous. I can't see that happening.
G. Greenwald: Yeah. I take your skepticism and not just take it but share it completely. At the same time, I'm wondering whether you know it's certainly true that the Israeli goal from the start was to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza in order to claim it for themselves and, in order to do that, as you also correctly observed, there was a need to make Gaza uninhabitable. If you listen to Trump and everyone around Trump, the premise of everything they're saying is that Gaza is already uninhabitable. Steve Witkoff, his envoy, went to Gaza on a short little excursion into it, protected by the IDF and basically came back and said, “There's nothing there but rubble”. Trump's whole argument for this pipe dream of cleansing Gaza is that there's nothing left of Gaza, there's no civilian infrastructure, and there are basically no buildings left. All of this is true. So, just focused for a moment on the narrow question of whether Israel intends to resume bombing or whether Trump wants the Israelis to resume bombing, why does Israel really need to keep bombing, given that they've essentially turned Gaza into nothing but a pile of rubble?
Norman Finkelstein: I totally agree with that. I would just like to add a couple of relevant observations. Number one: those who are outraged at what Trump has been saying it ought to be born in mind – the perfectly obvious ought to be born in mind – that Trump is ostensibly simply reacting to a situation enabled, created, by the Biden administration. If I understood from day one and I said it from day one that Israel's goal was to render Gaza uninhabitable, certainly, the Biden administration, Mr. Blinken, they were aware of that goal, they green-lighted that goal, and they enabled that goal. So, the situation to which President Trump is speaking was created under Biden's watch. If there were any doubt about what Israel's goal was, all you have to do is read the statements coming out of Israel, at the highest levels to the base of Israeli society, from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum, and in both official institutions and civil society institutions. There was a consensus and here I would want to note that, by now, we have so many compendia of collecting all the genocidal statements that were uttered during the past 15 months. We have in May 29, 2024, South Africa submitted a letter to the Security Council and it was accompanied by 121 pages single space of documentation in its entirety comprising the genocidal statements by Israeli society and I want to emphasize that because sometimes you can say a genocidal policy is a state policy but I do not believe that's an accurate description of what unfolded in Gaza the past 16 months. It was a national project encompassing the whole of Israeli society and so there was simply a kind of explosion of the id, the unconscious, the subconscious whatever departments of the psyche you believe in. There was this explosion of the most horrendous genocidal statements every day, every hour. On every social media option, there was this explosion, so you can't really say that the Israelis didn't know, as the Germans pretended after Hitler's defeat, you can't say they didn't know, and you certainly can’t say the Biden administration didn't know. If I knew, they knew. All you had to do was converse with Israeli officials or read your daily updates provided to senior officials by the CIA and other institutions. All you had to do was read them.